state debt and how it works

Kurt

Junior Member
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This is an article by the partisan Noble prize economist Paul Krugman in the New York Times.
It points out that debt itself is not neccessarily a problem, nor does America have an economic problem by foreign debt holders because Americans receive higher interests for the money they lend than for the money they borrow.
To make the point quick to understand, under current conditions, the USA could borrow money in China, lend it to another state (for example a EU member) and would make a profit.
The current debt level is even rather irrelevant if the right economic policy is pursued because if you look at WWII you can see how the US made a GDP growth while not actually paying back the war debt, but creating money to make it irrelevant.
So if you look for example at the US debt in Chinese hands, how does that compare to the Fed's share of US debt and ability to acquire more of that debt.

So other than the debt issue, that is often associated with failling US hegemony, and the Chinese US debt stakeholding, associated with the rising power of a new peer competitor, the whole financial interdependence could be overstated as well as the mutual interdependence.
In a way the PR China issue, pushed as a military aggressive competitor serves as a very strange rationale for an enormous military budget and accustomes people to the idea of a clash.
I have doubts that the US is economically as weak as often presented because the article is quite right that state debt is a different animal from private debt.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
Yes, because US debt is in it's currency, US$ ... the US have 100% control of it, so no problem at all :)

But Greece, Italia, Spain, France, etc debt is in Euro, US$, Yen and Yuan, which they have no control at all ;-(
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Yes,

But you are also forgetting that the USA have a lot of private debt, inter-government agency debt and inter-state/province/county/city debt. National debt is 15 trillion, while household debt is 46~ trillion?

This is still excluding bad loans and bailouts which auditors assume that what they paid is worth what they did.

besides, if the US do anything drastic to it's currency, I am sure many world leaders will be prepared to go to war over it instead of seeing their hard earned money invested in a "safe" economy become nothing.

WW2 is a piss poor example for economics, FDR is a genius in economics, lend lease basically stripped every other allied nations of their foreign reserves and processions to purchase US goods -> not hard to racket a living and grow an economy when you are the only seller on the market and you can name your price. About 7 billion dollars (1939 dollar) worth of British gold made its way to North America
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
quote
"besides, if the US do anything drastic to it's currency, I am sure many world leaders will be prepared to go to war over it instead of seeing their hard earned money invested in a "safe" economy become nothing."

whatttt ! .. it's a joke, right ?
 
quote
"besides, if the US do anything drastic to it's currency, I am sure many world leaders will be prepared to go to war over it instead of seeing their hard earned money invested in a "safe" economy become nothing."

whatttt ! .. it's a joke, right ?

No let's put it in a perspective. You lend because you know those "IOU"s still worth something. Lending money is a form of making money when you can get more than you lend out. Even if you're not pursuing any profits and you lend simply you have so much cash, you'd still expect you will get what you lent out, to return someday. If you know tomorrow the IOUs will worth nothing, this will mean the investments or your lent means no one to anyone no more. That's equivalent of your money disappearing, or giving your money away. Are you gonna sit around and watch/let your AR vaporize into oblivion?

Why do you think when stocks fall, the primary instinct is either to rescue it, or cash in to get what you can get while you still have chance? However prisoner's dilemma-wise, if everyone is on the primary instinct of self-preservation, then everyone loses, because seeing someone else withdraws instantly means a poor situation for you, so the natural move is to retain yours before too late. The chain event of course leads the debtor worse of, and maybe a problem that had a prospective solution deteriorating into a real major/(perhaps incurable) one simply when everyone withdraws aid and leads the debtor even less equipped to manage a situation/avert/solve this crisis. In the end, of course everybody loses. This is why sometimes to help a situation is to "share and help". However no one ain't gonna do that unless they believe their action is worth it, or in other words, enough confidence. This is why confidence in your investment is extremely important, or who you invest in. If the debtor has a good rep, credit, line of trust, or anything that gives you confidence, you'd be more willing to perhaps, even lend more money to assist them get out of a sticky situation, even if they do fall into a depression. This is a psychological privilege good credits give you.
Why do you know people care about credit ratings? IOU is equivalent of the amount of trust and credits that you will get your shit back or the security of your "investments of lending". You won't lend to someone who either has a poor credit rating, or you know it's a low possibility you'll get your principle back, not to mention interests?

This is also why Washington fears China in this regard. You can be everything else, but if the players know you have the biggest amount of money, you'd certainly be protecting your ASSets, and assets = a type of power. In this case, you yield power; financial power, but most importantly, social psychological power. If you see the Donald Trump or the richest guy cashing in everything and pulling it all out, that's an abnormal move in a healthy market. There's now also less money flowing in the market. And social psychologically, you fear, because the richest guy is pulling it out. So now less of what you can get back, and are you going to wait for others to pull their shares out first and leave lesser amount for you to get back? Of course everyone else are gonna do that. And then there goes the debtor's credit, oxygen, whatever you call it, as the debtor is stripped clean, especially reputation. Everyone knows this game and the risks and what to expect, but politics is realist and prisoner's dilemma; you'd rather get everything you can get back if you don't see how keeping your investments in can guarantee its security..aka your security.
And of course, keeping someone alive is better than pulling out the defib and kick-starting again. This is why as much of a shithole Washington is in, everyone else have to try and help this guy get back on his feet. Unless there's a nice substitute to replace Washington or where you can invest your money and all, the cancerous yet well-established one is still the primary pick than an undeveloped, untested, unproven, unknown, unsure one. There's at least some credibility about this playground(because you're in it long enough and you're feeling comfortable, so you don't want to migrate unless you have no choice and something else offers you more benefits and confidence)(credibility itself, here once again, proves why confidence and trust is important). This is why there's many reasons why no one had started a revolution or something...(also why no one expects US, and US itself, do anything too drastic/risky/discomforting that yields no assurance of the consequent of the action..) as this can scare someone into disengaging and leading everyone else to do the same..and of course whoever with the most asset/money/investment involved is who people pay attention to...and of course that's where US has to rely on the biggest man on the boat to stick around...

For the same reasons, China knows its hand and what power it yields. However this power is as solid as American trust or what Washington does with its debt...so China has the potential to lose all its investments and money too...which is why China is reducing the T-bills by spending, investing on acquiring other assets..

I'm not sure if I've gotten everything, if anything, correct with what I've written. Please advise, thanks.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
Please make myself clear again ...... US debt is in US$ and the US govt have full control of it.

See this scenario

Let's say the US govt was not able to pay it's debt and then the govt decided to just print money as much as they can ... I know the value of US$ would be perhaps only 20-30% of the current value ... so what ?, their debt is in US$ anyway .... and the US govt would pay their debt in US$, so the US govt is not doing anything wrong :)

Please note that I am not suggesting the US govt would do that ... but they could ... if they had to

and the US IS NOT FEARED of anybody ... US military could take on all world military combined
 
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Please make myself clear again ...... US debt is in US$ and the US govt have full control of it.

See this scenario

Let's say the US govt was not able to pay it's debt and then the govt decided to just print money as much as they can ... I know the value of US$ would be perhaps only 20-30% of the current value ... so what ?, their debt is in US$ anyway .... and the US govt would pay their debt in US$, so the US govt is not doing anything wrong :)

Please note that I am not suggesting the US govt would do that ... but they could ... if they had to

and the US IS NOT FEARED of anybody ... US military could take on all world military combined

Military doesn't run on fumes, and military can't take on the market.
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US military could take on all world military combined
My response:
whatttt ! .. it's a joke, right ?
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Please make myself clear again ...... US debt is in US$ and the US govt have full control of it.
Let's say the US govt was not able to pay it's debt and then the govt decided to just print money as much as they can ... I know the value of US$ would be perhaps only 20-30% of the current value ... so what ?, their debt is in US$ anyway .... and the US govt would pay their debt in US$, so the US govt is not doing anything wrong :)
Sure, but we'll see what happens to the world market, America's credit ratings, and what happens to America's future. Of course let's not forget what's lies in store for the American public if their leaders have done that...which is equivalent of prostituting their entire life, children, earnings, savings away. Surely Washington can give less of a shit about the outside, but of all things, the biggest damage goes to where it hurts Washington most - its own people and businesses. And lets think of the fate that will befall. If that happens, forget about taking on the world with its military. Will there even be any money to fund/keep up the maintenance of equipment, commissioning and logistics of fleets, resources, assets, and most importantly, pays and pensions for the troops? Forget about "next re-election", let's just think about what's going to happen to all the corporations first.
Wrapping up, it's NOT an option. You can say "So what?" again.

Let's think about what happened to Germany post-WWI, and why didn't USSR just "take on the world" like you've said.

Next time before you say something, please put some thoughts into what you've said or the consequent of it...or at least if it makes any sense at all. Have you ever thrown a ball at a wall 'cause you don't know what you're doing and then it flew back into your face? Same goes with words.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
Do you know it did happen exactly after WW 2 ?

In crisis/chaos, who cares about credit rating ... I know the whole world order would be in chaos, like after WW 2 .. and guess who got the most advantages ?

Remember US got everything they need (resources), unlike the UK or Japan

and also please read my post. "I am not suggesting the US govt would do that ... but they could ... if they had to"

like in 1972 when Nixon dropped GOLD standard for US$ .. so what ? ... the US was not feared anybody ... France ? ... just moaning but doing nothing, just had to accept it
 
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Do you know it did happen exactly after WW 2 ?

In crisis/chaos, who cares about credit rating ... I know the whole world order would be in chaos, like after WW 2 .. and guess who got the most advantages ?

Remember US got everything they need (resources), unlike the UK or Japan

and also please read my post. "I am not suggesting the US govt would do that ... but they could ... if they had to"

like in 1972 when Nixon dropped GOLD standard for US$ .. so what ? ... the US was not feared anybody ... France ? ... just moaning but doing nothing, just had to accept it

1. Why are you talking about after WW2. You're talking about what happens after surviving a house fire. The point is how to prevent or what can be done in case of a house fire.

2. Having what you need doesn't mean your situation is OK. If this is the case, why is US even in this situation the first place? Clearly there's something that US needs and it doesn't have, including solutions to the problems at hand.

3. Once again I don't know why you are comparing this to Nixon's era. Current US situation isn't what US is in during his time.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Do you know it did happen exactly after WW 2 ?

In crisis/chaos, who cares about credit rating ... I know the whole world order would be in chaos, like after WW 2 .. and guess who got the most advantages ?

Remember US got everything they need (resources), unlike the UK or Japan

and also please read my post. "I am not suggesting the US govt would do that ... but they could ... if they had to"

like in 1972 when Nixon dropped GOLD standard for US$ .. so what ? ... the US was not feared anybody ... France ? ... just moaning but doing nothing, just had to accept it


Nixon dropped the gold standard in 1972? I thought FDR did in 1933
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The US did it when the Pound Sterling and Franc were the world's currency.

It is not like the US have the resource for themselves -> her oil reserves are purely strategic, while most of her ore and coal reserves are now depleted.

Who cares about credit rating? well, if all US bond yield go up the US govt have to pay more, and therefore the citizen will have to pay more taxes. Unless the US household income increases with the rate of money printing, you will easily have revolt on the streets.

And even if the US control USD, don't forget that people using USD can still buy US items like companies, mines, infrastructure, etc at a US price. If the USA prevents foreign countries from buying up the country with her own currency, then the money is as good as worthless and other countries might as well go to war over it.
 
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