Brumby
Major
The issues in m view are primarily about questionable basis and legitimacy rather than legality.
South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)
- Thread starter PanAsian
- Start date
OK let’s see what standard would that be in this case.
And let’s see if any particular standard/s for our case would be able to define what breakage actually means.
OK so this is the standard.
But wait, this standard comes with a fine print, restrictions may apply. Let's read the fine print.
Now, admittedly that standard is loose. How loose is anybody's guess.
So we need to put in additional fixes for the loose standard that tries to fix maritime disputes.
Sounds like a perfect Windows fix.
Does seem like we have an awfully great foundation for a solid standard.
Isn’t it one of the loose standard’s legal provisions?Remember? Loose?
So China is still obeying the law up to this point , wouldn’t you agree?
Oh now which standard are you using to measure, or what specific mechanism are you talking about?
Refer to your previous sentence.
So what tf does it settle then?
Without settling any legal or illegal issues, how can you get a "merely equitable outcome "?
With a heavy dose of Rashomon effect all around.
Everybody has different interpretations of that given set of facts and background.
That's the fact and background.
Don't complain when you have a loose standard.
Refer back to this …
Oh now which standard are you using to measure, or what specific mechanism are you talking about?
More like all of this verbose spaghetti junction legalese is full of it.
Blackstone
Brigadier
I could see how reasonable people might share your views, but you'll should admit reasonable people could also see it as a narrowly focused legal matter.
Blackstone
Brigadier
I don't think antiterror13 meant it in a racist way, and I thank you to stop implying he did.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Guys, this is about the MODERN South/East China seas disputes not historical events. Friendly reminder that we are on a moderated forum with regulations on freedom of speech regarding topics of discussion. Now back on topic.
I pulled this from Reuters news
Manila finds marker with Chinese writing, buoys in disputed waters-sources
* Buoys stretched "as far as eye could see" - Philippine sailor
* Chinese naval ship emerged when sailors tried to remove buoys
* Philippines has long explored for oil and gas along Reed Bank
* Reed Bank not far from disputed Spratly islands
* China says has sovereignty over Spratlys and nearby waters
By Manuel Mogato
PUERTO PRINCESA, Philippines, July 7 (Reuters) - The Philippine navy recently found a large steel marker bearing Chinese inscriptions and hundreds of yellow buoys in waters near the Reed Bank, an area of the South China Sea where Manila has long explored for oil and gas, Philippine naval sources said.
One source, a sailor, told Reuters he was on a fishing boat being used by the navy that discovered the rubber buoys and the floating steel marker at the end of May. The buoys stretched "as far as the eye could see", the sailor said.
He said there was no evidence Chinese ships had placed them near the Reed Bank, which is also claimed by Beijing.
But efforts to remove the buoys were thwarted by the sudden appearance of a Chinese naval patrol vessel, prompting the Philippine boat to flee, the sailor said in an interview in Puerto Princesa, capital of Palawan province, the Philippine military's jumping off point to the disputed South China Sea.
The Reed Bank lies 80-90 nautical miles (148-167 km) west of the Philippines in what Manila regards as its 200-nautical mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ).
"Our boys tried to cut and remove the buoys but a large Chinese patrol ship emerged on the horizon and they hurriedly left," the sailor said, adding it was unclear what the Chinese inscriptions on the steel marker said.
The discovery was confirmed by two senior Philippine naval officials. One said the buoys were still there when the navy checked in the middle of June, although the steel marker was gone. No attempt was made to remove the buoys, he said.
The three sources declined to be identified because they were not authorised to speak to the media.
Philippine military officials said it was the first time in recent years that such markers had been found near the Reed Bank.
The Spratly islands, where China is flexing its naval muscles as it builds seven man-made islands on top of coral reefs, lie to the southwest of Reed Bank, further away from the Philippines.
Asked to comment on the buoys, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said "we do not understand what you are talking about", while adding that China had "indisputable sovereignty" over the Spratly islands and its nearby waters.
"China's position on this is clear and consistent," it said.
The Chinese Defence Ministry did not respond to a request for comment.
Marine Colonel Edgard Arevalo, the Philippine navy spokesman in Manila, said he had not seen any report on the discovery.
China claims most of the South China Sea, through which $5 trillion in ship-borne trade passes every year. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan also have overlapping claims.
FOCUS ON OTHER SHOALS TOO
Philippine military strategists have long worried that China wants to occupy the Reed Bank.
One air force general said he suspected the buoys were put there so Chinese fishermen could tether their boats, then if the Philippine navy tried to evict the fishermen, Chinese coastguard ships would appear to protect them.
In 2012, China seized Scarborough shoal, which lies 124 nautical miles (230 km) west of the Philippines, after a three-month standoff with the Philippine navy.
China has since prevented Philippine fishermen from getting close to the rocky outcrop's rich fishing grounds, the Philippine government and fishermen say.
The Philippine navy has previously found markers with Chinese inscriptions around shoals in other parts of the South China Sea that Manila claims.
In 2011, a steel marker the size of a 14-footer container was discovered in Sabina shoal in the Spratlys. A navy boat towed it away while concrete markers found in the same area last July were blown up, naval officials said.
The Philippine government said in March it was suspending exploration at Reed Bank while it pursued international arbitration over its territorial dispute with China at a U.N. tribunal in the Hague.
Manila is seeking a ruling to confirm its right to exploit waters in its EEZ as allowed under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
China has refused to participate in the hearing, which opens on Tuesday.
(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in BEIJING; Editing by Dean Yates)
World | Wed Jul 8, 2015 1:15am EDT
Related:
Court begins hearing Philippines, China dispute over South China Sea
AMSTERDAM | BY TOBY STERLING
A Philippine Navy personnel stands in front of an Agusta Westland AW109 helicopter before it takes off during Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT) Philippines 2014, a U.S.-Philippines military exercise, aboard Philippine Navy vessel BRP Ramon Alcaraz in the...
REUTERS/NOEL CELIS/POOL
The Philippines argued at a closed hearing on Tuesday that an international court should intervene in its dispute with China over the right to exploit natural resources and fish in the South China Sea.
Although China has declined to participate, the case at the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague is being closely watched by Asian governments and Washington, given rising regional tensions as Chinese naval power grows.
A panel of five judges will hear arguments this week and decide whether the treaty-based court has jurisdiction.
Manila filed suit at the court in 2013, seeking to enforce its right to exploit waters in a 200-nautical mile "exclusive economic zone" off its coast, as defined under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
The Philippines argues that the arbitration court is the correct venue for resolving disputes covered by the treaty, which both countries have signed.
"The Philippines believes the court has jurisdiction over all the claims it has made," said lawyer Paul Reichler, representing the Philippines.
He said he was confident the court would ultimately rule in the Philippines' favor.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said China did not accept the court's jurisdiction and would not participate.
"China opposes any form of arbitration process proposed and promoted by the Philippines," Hua told a daily news briefing in Beijing on Tuesday.
In a position paper in December, China argued the dispute was not covered by the treaty because it was ultimately a matter of sovereignty, not exploitation rights.
China claims most of the South China Sea. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei claim overlapping parts of the strategic waterway.
While the hearings are closed to the public, the court said in a statement it had allowed small delegations from Vietnam, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia and Thailand to observe proceedings after getting requests from those countries.
After the Philippines, the country most at odds with Beijing over the South China Sea is Vietnam. Japan is also involved in a bitter dispute with China over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea.
Manila says China is unfairly preventing it from accessing reefs and shoals that are under its dominion in the South China Sea.
Reichler said the case could continue even if China declined to participate. The court's rulings are binding, although it has no power to enforce them and countries have ignored them in the past.
Reichler declined to discuss the details of the Philippines' arguments on Tuesday.
Court legal counsel Judith Levine said the court would not comment on the proceedings.
Reichler said he expected a decision on jurisdiction within 90 days. A ruling on the merits of the case could take years.
(Additional reporting by in Beijing and Manuel Mogato in Manila; Editing by and )
I pulled this from Reuters news
Manila finds marker with Chinese writing, buoys in disputed waters-sources
* Buoys stretched "as far as eye could see" - Philippine sailor
* Chinese naval ship emerged when sailors tried to remove buoys
* Philippines has long explored for oil and gas along Reed Bank
* Reed Bank not far from disputed Spratly islands
* China says has sovereignty over Spratlys and nearby waters
By Manuel Mogato
PUERTO PRINCESA, Philippines, July 7 (Reuters) - The Philippine navy recently found a large steel marker bearing Chinese inscriptions and hundreds of yellow buoys in waters near the Reed Bank, an area of the South China Sea where Manila has long explored for oil and gas, Philippine naval sources said.
One source, a sailor, told Reuters he was on a fishing boat being used by the navy that discovered the rubber buoys and the floating steel marker at the end of May. The buoys stretched "as far as the eye could see", the sailor said.
He said there was no evidence Chinese ships had placed them near the Reed Bank, which is also claimed by Beijing.
But efforts to remove the buoys were thwarted by the sudden appearance of a Chinese naval patrol vessel, prompting the Philippine boat to flee, the sailor said in an interview in Puerto Princesa, capital of Palawan province, the Philippine military's jumping off point to the disputed South China Sea.
The Reed Bank lies 80-90 nautical miles (148-167 km) west of the Philippines in what Manila regards as its 200-nautical mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ).
"Our boys tried to cut and remove the buoys but a large Chinese patrol ship emerged on the horizon and they hurriedly left," the sailor said, adding it was unclear what the Chinese inscriptions on the steel marker said.
The discovery was confirmed by two senior Philippine naval officials. One said the buoys were still there when the navy checked in the middle of June, although the steel marker was gone. No attempt was made to remove the buoys, he said.
The three sources declined to be identified because they were not authorised to speak to the media.
Philippine military officials said it was the first time in recent years that such markers had been found near the Reed Bank.
The Spratly islands, where China is flexing its naval muscles as it builds seven man-made islands on top of coral reefs, lie to the southwest of Reed Bank, further away from the Philippines.
Asked to comment on the buoys, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said "we do not understand what you are talking about", while adding that China had "indisputable sovereignty" over the Spratly islands and its nearby waters.
"China's position on this is clear and consistent," it said.
The Chinese Defence Ministry did not respond to a request for comment.
Marine Colonel Edgard Arevalo, the Philippine navy spokesman in Manila, said he had not seen any report on the discovery.
China claims most of the South China Sea, through which $5 trillion in ship-borne trade passes every year. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan also have overlapping claims.
FOCUS ON OTHER SHOALS TOO
Philippine military strategists have long worried that China wants to occupy the Reed Bank.
One air force general said he suspected the buoys were put there so Chinese fishermen could tether their boats, then if the Philippine navy tried to evict the fishermen, Chinese coastguard ships would appear to protect them.
In 2012, China seized Scarborough shoal, which lies 124 nautical miles (230 km) west of the Philippines, after a three-month standoff with the Philippine navy.
China has since prevented Philippine fishermen from getting close to the rocky outcrop's rich fishing grounds, the Philippine government and fishermen say.
The Philippine navy has previously found markers with Chinese inscriptions around shoals in other parts of the South China Sea that Manila claims.
In 2011, a steel marker the size of a 14-footer container was discovered in Sabina shoal in the Spratlys. A navy boat towed it away while concrete markers found in the same area last July were blown up, naval officials said.
The Philippine government said in March it was suspending exploration at Reed Bank while it pursued international arbitration over its territorial dispute with China at a U.N. tribunal in the Hague.
Manila is seeking a ruling to confirm its right to exploit waters in its EEZ as allowed under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
China has refused to participate in the hearing, which opens on Tuesday.
(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in BEIJING; Editing by Dean Yates)
World | Wed Jul 8, 2015 1:15am EDT
Related:
Court begins hearing Philippines, China dispute over South China Sea
AMSTERDAM | BY TOBY STERLING
A Philippine Navy personnel stands in front of an Agusta Westland AW109 helicopter before it takes off during Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT) Philippines 2014, a U.S.-Philippines military exercise, aboard Philippine Navy vessel BRP Ramon Alcaraz in the...
REUTERS/NOEL CELIS/POOL
The Philippines argued at a closed hearing on Tuesday that an international court should intervene in its dispute with China over the right to exploit natural resources and fish in the South China Sea.
Although China has declined to participate, the case at the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague is being closely watched by Asian governments and Washington, given rising regional tensions as Chinese naval power grows.
A panel of five judges will hear arguments this week and decide whether the treaty-based court has jurisdiction.
Manila filed suit at the court in 2013, seeking to enforce its right to exploit waters in a 200-nautical mile "exclusive economic zone" off its coast, as defined under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
The Philippines argues that the arbitration court is the correct venue for resolving disputes covered by the treaty, which both countries have signed.
"The Philippines believes the court has jurisdiction over all the claims it has made," said lawyer Paul Reichler, representing the Philippines.
He said he was confident the court would ultimately rule in the Philippines' favor.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said China did not accept the court's jurisdiction and would not participate.
"China opposes any form of arbitration process proposed and promoted by the Philippines," Hua told a daily news briefing in Beijing on Tuesday.
In a position paper in December, China argued the dispute was not covered by the treaty because it was ultimately a matter of sovereignty, not exploitation rights.
China claims most of the South China Sea. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei claim overlapping parts of the strategic waterway.
While the hearings are closed to the public, the court said in a statement it had allowed small delegations from Vietnam, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia and Thailand to observe proceedings after getting requests from those countries.
After the Philippines, the country most at odds with Beijing over the South China Sea is Vietnam. Japan is also involved in a bitter dispute with China over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea.
Manila says China is unfairly preventing it from accessing reefs and shoals that are under its dominion in the South China Sea.
Reichler said the case could continue even if China declined to participate. The court's rulings are binding, although it has no power to enforce them and countries have ignored them in the past.
Reichler declined to discuss the details of the Philippines' arguments on Tuesday.
Court legal counsel Judith Levine said the court would not comment on the proceedings.
Reichler said he expected a decision on jurisdiction within 90 days. A ruling on the merits of the case could take years.
(Additional reporting by in Beijing and Manuel Mogato in Manila; Editing by and )
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A lot has been said over the last pages that cannot be relevant.
Just taking the matters that are relevant:
If Tai Ping is a rock, the Philippines might have a case. As it is an island the matter to be considered is the border between the EEZ of that island and the Philippines which is not a matter for the Court but must be threshed out in direct negotiations between China and the Philippines.
As this has been the point of view of China all along China will be vindicated in not accepting arbitration by the Court. If this is the outcome will anyone be surprised?
Just taking the matters that are relevant:
If Tai Ping is a rock, the Philippines might have a case. As it is an island the matter to be considered is the border between the EEZ of that island and the Philippines which is not a matter for the Court but must be threshed out in direct negotiations between China and the Philippines.
As this has been the point of view of China all along China will be vindicated in not accepting arbitration by the Court. If this is the outcome will anyone be surprised?
joshuatree
Captain
Yet in an article today. Is this going to be another episode of where the Philippines accused China of placing numerous concrete blocks as "foundation" for a base that eventually turned out to be be old remnants of something else?
Wescom denies Chinese marker buoys placed in Reed Bank
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Clearly the US has established its policy of more patrols in the South China Sea with US Navy vessels, from LCS to Burke destroyers, and even Tico cruisers.
The latest:
The latest:
Naval Today said:
Blackstone
Brigadier
Great to see the USN asserting Freedom of Passage, but there's a fine line between standing for international norms and trouble seeking, and I hope the Beltway Mandarins avoid the latter.
Brumby
Major
Please refer to post #531.