South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

Jeff Head said:

Perhaps in your mind, eng...but you hardly speak for everyone.

Several posters here on SD have recognized it and spoken to it...which is why I made the post in response.

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Perhaps in their mind Jeff, but they do not speak for everyone.

Jeff Head said:

China needs to clarify what they mean by the 9 Dash. They need to clarify their intentions.

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Do you have to prove you are not a murderer, Jeff? Do you have to prove you are not a terrorist? The burden of proof lies on China's opponents to prove that Nine Dash Line represents a claim for the sea, not for China to clarify itself whenever others come out with a new accusation.

Jeff Head said:

For example, they need to make it clear that they are not claiming ownership of the vast majority of the South China Sea. They need to ease tensions associated with those nations who fear that this is exactly what they mean.

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I would argue those nations have no such fear. They are in the game long enough and know full well that the contention is on rocks, not water. In fact, the claimants have their own version of Nine Dash Line. The so call fear is for public consumption.

Jeff Head said:

Whenever there are tensions like this between nations, the thing to do (on both sides I might add) is to clarify positions, make clear exactly what is meant and give reassurance to those neighbors and involved nations that, for example, the PRC will not claim an absolute EEZ around each and every island and reef, regardless of other claims in surrounding locations...so that the resources become the exclusive right or property or control of the PRC..

This can be done by sitting down with all the parties involved, including the United States (because like it or not, the US has interests in the area, even if they do not own a single one of those reefs or islands...or even claim any of them). The SLOCs through there are vital to world-wide commerce, to and from the US and to and from US allies and friends.

So, again, all parties clarifying these positions is clearly needed because there are nations that have serious concerns.

Standing on some kind of a high horse saying that there is nothing to clarify does not help alleviate these concerns in the least...in fact it makes it considerably worse.

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It's not like the dispute only started yesterday. All that needs to be said has been said. All that needs to be clarified has been clarified. It isn't going to get any better just because China does more clarification.

Engineer said:

Perhaps in their mind Jeff, but they do not speak for everyone.

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Oh, I see. But you are an individual, Eng...they are several people.

And the larger point is that there are several nations who feel this way.

Engineer said:

Do you have to prove you are not a murderer, Jeff? Do you have to prove you are not a terrorist? The burden of proof lies on China's opponents to prove that Nine Dash Line represents a claim for the sea, not for China to clarify itself whenever others come out with a new accusation.

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Complete fallacy argument..

The Chinese announced the 9 Dash line...put it forward as one of their strategies in an area where their are multiple claims and multiple interests. The burden is on them to let their neighbors know what they mean by it if they want others to understand.

Look, it is clear we are not going to agree.

In the end...the best path (as I said, and for all sides) is to be open and clear about their meanings and their intentions and to sit down and talk through these things.

In order for that to happen...China will have to clarify, as will the others. As in all negotiations and relationships between nations...it is up to all players to sit down in good faith.

Right now...that's not really happening on either side . But that is also no reason to say that it should not happen or is unnecessary.

The tensions in the area make clear that it would be a good thing.

Jeff Head said:

Oh, I see. But you are an individual, Eng...they are several people.

And the larger point is that there are several nations who feel this way.

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Totally fallacious. And I will tell you why, because it is argumentum ad populum.

Jeff Head said:

Complete fallacy argument..

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There is nothing fallacious about basic principles of presenting an argument. China's opponents made accusations, then China opponents must prove these accusations. A party believing otherwise is the one making fallacies, like those "several people" you mentioned at the top of your post.

If there is concrete evidence that China is claiming water, China's opponents would have brought them forward long ago. These nations would not need to rely on the fallacy of "well, if China is innocent, she would clarify herself."

Jeff Head said:

The Chinese announced the 9 Dash line...put it forward as one of their strategies in an area where their are multiple claims and multiple interests. The burden is on them to let their neighbors know what they mean by it if they want others to understand.

Look, it is clear we are not going to agree.

In the end...the best path (as I said, and for all sides) is to be open and clear about their meanings and their intentions and to sit down and talk through these things.

In order for that to happen...China will have to clarify, as will the others. As in all negotiations and relationships between nations...it is up to all players to sit down in good faith.

Right now...that's not really happening on either side . But that is also no reason to say that it should not happen or is unnecessary.

The tensions in the area make clear that it would be a good thing.

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It seem you have missed that fact about other claimants having their own version of Nine Dash Line. So no, China does not need to clarify herself on this matter. It is dirty politics, that's all. I know it. You know it. The participants in the dispute know it.

Engineer said:

Totally fallacious. And I will tell you why, because it is argumentum ad populum.


There is nothing fallacious about basic principles of presenting an argument. China's opponents made accusations, then China opponents must prove these accusations.

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I have not spoken of accusations, Engineer. you are the one bringing it into this conversation. I spoke only of clarification.

Asking someone what you mean is not an accusation anyone of anything.

Engineer said:

It seem you have missed that fact about other claimants having their own version of Nine Dash Line

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I have said...two or three times now, Engineer, that all sides have to be upfront and clarify their meanings.

It might seem that you you missed that.

But I do not believe you did...I believe you simply want to continue repeating, no matter what, that there is no need for clarification.

If people honestly ask for clarification, then that is prima facie evidence that there is a need for it.

If people refuse to clarify anything, and do not seek to resolve things, on either side...well, that can only inevitably lead to worsening conditions.

I'd personally would like to see that avoided.

But as I said...it is clear that you and I are not going to agree on this.

No need for any further back and forth.

Jeff Head said:

I have not spoken of accusations, Engineer. you are the one bringing it into this conversation. I spoke only of clarification.

Asking someone what you mean is not an accusation anyone of anything.

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I did not said you were the one accusing. The accusers are the other participants in the dispute. I believe that was very clear in my post.

Jeff Head said:

I have said...two or three times now, Engineer, that all sides have to be upfront and clarify their meanings.

It might seem that you you missed that.

But I do not believe you did...I believe you simply want to continue repeating, no matter what, that there is no need for clarification.

If people honestly ask for clarification, then that is prima facie evidence that there is a need for it.

If people refuse to clarify anything, and do not seek to resolve things, on either side...well, that can only inevitably lead to worsening conditions.

I'd personally would like to see that avoided.

But as I said...it is clear that you and I are not going to agree on this.

No need for any further back and forth.

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Am I the only one who sees the irony in you suggesting how we won't come to an agreement, yet believing the same kind of back-and-forth "clarification" among the dispute participants would?

You also seem to have missed the fact that the dispute has been ongoing for nearly half a century! Clarification didn't mean jack this entire time, and will not make a difference in the future. Those other nations don't want any clarification from China. They want China out. Thus China makes the correct response by not wasting any breath in this matter.

Engineer said:

I did not said you were the one accusing. The accusers are the other participants in the dispute. I believe that was very clear in my post.

And it might seem you missed the fact that the dispute has been ongoing for nearly half a century!

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Engineer, I have missed no such thing.

the use of the Nine Dash line by China to the UN is not fifty years old.

They officially submitted a map with their nine dash line territorial claims to the UN in in May 2009.

There has been misundertandinfg and inquiries for clarification ever since.

Engineer said:

Those other nations don't want any more clarification from China. They want China out.

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Oh baloney.

So now you are going to tell all of the rest of uswhat it is all of those other nations want, eh?

I am going to have to ask you not to make such bombastic statements here, Engineer. It is something I view as flame bait and we will not go there here on SD>

Finally, this thread is not about China's strategies, it is about other nation's strategies.

Let's get back on topic to what the purpose of this thread is.

if other nations want to recommend the need for clarification, that is a potential strategy.

If other nations want to do more reclamation themselves or in concert with others, that is a potential strategy.

Of other nations want tt file suit against the PRC over these matters with UN agencies, that is a potential strategy.

That is the sort of thing this thread is meant to be about, and it was created precisely to get those strategies off of the Chinese strategy thread where the Chinese strategies can be discussed separately.

Thanks.

Jeff Head said:

Engineer, I have missed no such thing.

the use of the Nine Dash line by China to the UN is not fifty years old.

They officially submitted a map with their nine dash line territorial claims to the UN in in May 2009.

There has been misundertandinfg and inquiries for clarification ever since.

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The issue isn't when China submitted a claim to UN. The issue is that opponents of China are using the line, manufacturing the notion that China is claiming the sea, as part of their strategy against China. It is essentially a strawman argument.

Jeff Head said:

Oh baloney.

So now you are going to tell all of the rest of uswhat it is all of those other nations want, eh?

I am going to have to ask you not to make such bombastic statements here, Engineer. It is something I view as flame bait and we will not go there here on SD>

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So you are suggesting that these nations stood to gain by having China sitting on their territory, in a territorial dispute? But I do not believe you did... I believe you simply are projecting, because you want to be the one to tell me what other nations want and do not want.

Jeff Head said:

Finally, this thread is not about China's strategies, it is about other nation's strategies.

Let's get back on topic to what the purpose of this thread is.

if other nations want to recommend the need for clarification, that is a potential strategy.

If other nations want to do more reclamation themselves or in concert with others, that is a potential strategy.

Of other nations want tt file suit against the PRC over these matters with UN agencies, that is a potential strategy.

That is the sort of thing this thread is meant to be about, and it was created precisely to get those strategies off of the Chinese strategy thread where the Chinese strategies can be discussed separately.

Thanks.

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So me pointing out how other claimants' requests for clarification are not really about clarification, but as a strategy to make life difficult for China, is not talking about other claimants' strategy? You lost me there.

China should clarify its 9-dashed line claim, but certainly not to the US. China should be open to negotiating jointly with all the other claimants (Taiwan at the table would be tricky though) to clarify everyone's claims at the same time, which ultimately aims for a multilateral settlement. This is not just what China, but all the claimants, should be looking to do.

Engineer said:

I believe you simply are projecting, because you want to be the one to tell me what other nations want and do not want.

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Oh, please, Eng. I simply made a comment that I felt that clarification was in order. You are the one taking that simple comment to the mat.

I do feel that clarification was in order. I have not said what other nations want or do not want...other than to indicate that there are nations who have an issue. That is pretty obvious, and one which you have admitted yourself.

But then you want to tell us all that those nations asking for clarification is not about clarification at all...IOW, telling us what they do and don't want....which is what you now accuse me of.

Engineer said:

So me pointing out how other claimants' requests for clarification are not really about clarification, but as a strategy to make life difficult for China, is not talking about other claimants' strategy? You lost me there.

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What's to lose?

You are putting words in their mouth. You are telling the rest of us that what they say is not what they mean. Clearly, that is pure speculation and supposition. I do not mind that...but call it what it is...instead of using very declarative statements that leave no room for discussion, other than your own POV.

Time to let it Drop

Jeff Head said:

the use of the Nine Dash line by China to the UN is not fifty years old.

They officially submitted a map with their nine dash line territorial claims to the UN in in May 2009.

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On this count, all the other claimant's claims are from 2009 as well since they all submitted their official claims to the UN in that year too. I've commented on this before, the UNCLOS deadline has been more trouble stirring than a pacifier. By forcing all claimants to openly state their stake, it's escalated the tensions, actions, and counter actions. The ambiguity over the previous years allowed some leeway. China probably won't clarify up till it can't no more, until then, it will squeeze as much mileage out of it as possible.