South China Sea dispute

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Red___Sword

Junior Member
That peaceful rise stuff is for children. Spratley Islands belong to China and anybody who challenges that will not face a response that is "peaceful."

Joining any anti-China alliance would lead to even worse consequences for those countries. China is a serious superpower and it intends to act like one.

Brother, even a Chinese citizen like me won't talk like that.

Of course anyone "Joining any anti-China alliance would lead to even worse consequences for those countries", but it is not necessary to lead to the conclusion of"...and it intends to act like one".

Bargain, those who forms (and shaters - from time to time) all kinds of alliances around, are just bargain themself to sell a better price. Since they are determined to make themselves to be the "bargain chips", it is simple choice, for China to "communicate" with the "actual player" to determine the outcome.

Player plays bargain chips, with another equal weighted player.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Taipei claims the Spratly Islands using the same historical and cartographic arguments Beijing does. They claim the islands belong to China, Taipei is the seat of the legitimate Chinese government, ergo the Spratly Islands belong to Taiwan. They also occupy the largest island, Itu Aba, and others. The PRC actually has barely a toehold in the Spratly Islands, some build-up forts on submerged reefs and nothing more. The few inhabitable islands belong to Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, and Malaysia.

The PRC should make a serious effort to coordinate their claims of the Spratly and Senkaku Islands with Taipei. This would be beneficial to them by dividing the anti-China alliance Japan wants to forge for all issues China. It would reinforce the reality that both the Mainland and Taiwan claim to be the same country and ought to have the Chinese nation's larger interests at heart. The KMT and CCP called a truce to fight the Japanese invasion in World War II because they recognized a far greater threat. That should serve as a precedent to renewed cooperation in the area of territorial disputes. Cooperation will beget appreciation and good feelings between Taiwan residents and Mainland residents.


Very OFFICIAL political terms, on all those nouns.

Pity not that much offical when it comes to "identity". As long as something to do with PRC, the ROC is trying thier best to segregate themselves form any involment relationship, even if it concerns the supposed ROC dominion.

"If mainland is not under ROC control, and it cost ROC dollar for those disputed places that already under someone else's control, then why bother?"

Bro you made a fine suggestion, but you made the wrong subject and object to this suggestion.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Movement is afoot in the South China Sea. Philippines was plotting with an Anglo-French consortium to drill in disputed waters. Vietnam is guaranteed to be next. They are already telegraphing their intention by "protesting" about a Chinese anti-piracy exercise in Paracel Islands, calling it a "serious violation" of its sovereignty.

The latest clash occurred last Wednesday when a Singapore-registered, French-owned survey ship was conducting tests at the Reed Bank oil and gas fields off Palawan Island.

Lt Gen Juancho Sabban, military commander for the Western Philippines, said the two Chinese patrol boats shadowed the survey boat and threatened to ram it.

In response, Manila sent two war planes to the area, prompting the Chinese boats to leave.

The Philippines has awarded an exploration contract to an Anglo-French consortium to explore the area for gas with a view to exploiting it.

"They had to pack up and reconstitute everything," Mr Almendras told reporters. "We have to wait, but we hope to resume."

The Chinese embassy in Manila reiterated China's "indisputable sovereignty" over the area.

The Vietnamese foreign ministry said on Friday that China's anti-piracy exercise in the Truong Sa archipelago was a serious violation of Vietnam's sovereignty.

Last year, the United States backed the position of the Association of South East Asian Nations (Asean) in favour of multilateral talks about the myriad overlapping territorial claims in the region.

The US has just sold a large patrol boat to the Philippines to bolster maritime patrols.

Just as China was announcing a significant increase in spending on its military last week, Japan also protested against China.

It said a Chinese helicopter flew close to and appeared to be filming a Japanese warship in the east China Sea.

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Meanwhile, Vietnam is very worried about Laos damming Mekong upstream. I wonder if the incidents are related?

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Of course anyone "Joining any anti-China alliance would lead to even worse consequences for those countries", but it is not necessary to lead to the conclusion of"...and it intends to act like one".
There is nothing shameful about acting like a superpower. You don't need to go around committing atrocities.

What it means is that you go from being passive and defensive (like China has been for the past 150 years) to being proud, confident and audacious enough to use both carrot and stick to further your interests (like British Empire in the 19th century).

China can learn a lot from the West -- do as they do, not as they say. The birth of a superpower is never peaceful. As long as China prevails, everything it does will be considered good and just because winners write history.

All China needs is the morale of 1951 PRC plus the technology of 2011 USA.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Indonesia has stepped in on China's side! I think Indonesia would be the ideal strategic ally for China in SE Asia because it sits astride not only the Straits of Malacca but those couple other passageways between the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean.

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(Note the article is incorrect when it states that Indonesia is not a claimant state to the Spratley's. In fact it claims some of the islands.)

The situation is getting more and more interesting. I predict soon the US will loudly enter the dispute by saying that it is trying to protect western oil companies doing exploration in disputed waters.

Then China will need to send surface battle groups and air force patrols to conduct full-scale military exercises practicing massive missile salvos to defend its waters! It would be a pity if some western oil company ships were accidentally struck.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
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(Note the article is incorrect when it states that Indonesia is not a claimant state to the Spratley's. In fact it claims some of the islands.)

I see you are not getting your facts right again.

Indonesia is indeed not a claimant of the Spratlys based on the original dotted line drawn by Chiang Kai-Shek that is the basis of PRC's modern day claim to Spratlys.

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However, PRC did some "amendments" to the dotted line claim in the '90s by extending areas between some of the dots. These "amendments" stretched the boundaries to overlap some of Indonesia's gas fields in the Natunas Island areas to the Southwest of the Spratlys. Thus, as a result of these amendments, Indonesia suddenly got dragged in. Being concerned, Indonesia sought clarification from PRC about this claim. Have not heard of clarification being received though.

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Indonesia has until recently been a cautious bystander in these events. However, a series of Chinese maps, the first produced in 1993 at an informal workshop on the South China Sea hosted by Indonesia in Surabaya, appear to stake a claim by China to the entire South China Sea, including the marine territory north of the Natunas.

This claimed area overlaps Indonesia’s assumptions that its Exclusive Economic Zone extends northward from the Natunas, jutting into the South China Sea and including areas believed to hold significant oil and gas reserves.

At the meeting in Surabaya, B. Raman, a former senior Indian government official, wrote in Asian Affairs that there was alarm on the part of the Indonesian delegation.

“The Indonesians noticed to their surprise that the Chinese claim line was marked between the Natuna Islands of Indonesia and a gas-bearing area located 250 kilometers to the northeast of it, which lies within the limit of the Exclusive Economic Zone of 320 kilometers claimed by Indonesia, thereby raising the suspicion that China probably looked upon this gas-bearing area also as historically belonging to it even though it had never claimed it in the past before the discovery of gas.”

More importantly, these "amendments" that dragged Indonesia in have remained "informal", although they are presented by PRC's officials. Will the "informal" claims be formalised?
 

Roger604

Senior Member
The red line is finally going to be crossed. Philippines is going to drill in Chinese EEZ as well as build military bases on Chinese islands.

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MANILA - THE Philippines has increased air and naval patrols and plans to upgrade an airstrip on an island it occupies in the South China Sea to strengthen its claim on the disputed area, the military chief said on Monday.

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It appears that Haliburton will be doing the drilling.

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China's best strategy is to simply sink any Filipino or foreign vessels violating China's sovereignty. Of course this is all preplanned by the US so obviously US will announce it is deploying aircraft carriers to protect Filipino or foreign vessels.

Then China must take this announcement as a declaration of war and commence the operation to end the American Empire:

1) Dump all US treasures. US will turn into Weimar Germany or 80's Argentina. The US dollar is already in its last throes. Entire states might even go bankrupt, start using gold and silver, or even secede.

2) Get Middle Eastern allies such as Iran and Pakistan to attack US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Instigate people in US puppet governments to overthrown their rulers. The region is ripe with unrest.

3) Elite tank forces from Beijing and Shenyang military regions should cross the 38th parallel and take Seoul. South Korea is already hurting from its misadventures last year.

4) Japan is already hurting from its earthquake. If Japan tries to support the US, then China can attack the Fushima nuclear plant with missiles and throw radiative material all over Japan. Meanwhile, instigate Okinawans to finally overthrown their Japanese / US marine oppressors and rejoin China.

5) Air and missile strikes on all US military bases in the region.

6) Type 094 submarines must prowl up and down the West and East Coasts of the US as deterrent to any US misadventure.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The red line is finally going to be crossed. Philippines is going to drill in Chinese EEZ as well as build military bases on Chinese islands.

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It appears that Haliburton will be doing the drilling.

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China's best strategy is to simply sink any Filipino or foreign vessels violating China's sovereignty. Of course this is all preplanned by the US so obviously US will announce it is deploying aircraft carriers to protect Filipino or foreign vessels.

Then China must take this announcement as a declaration of war and commence the operation to end the American Empire:

1) Dump all US treasures. US will turn into Weimar Germany or 80's Argentina. The US dollar is already in its last throes. Entire states might even go bankrupt, start using gold and silver, or even secede.

2) Get Middle Eastern allies such as Iran and Pakistan to attack US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Instigate people in US puppet governments to overthrown their rulers. The region is ripe with unrest.

3) Elite tank forces from Beijing and Shenyang military regions should cross the 51st parallel and take Seoul. South Korea is already hurting from its misadventures last year.

4) Japan is already hurting from its earthquake. If Japan tries to support the US, then China can attack the Fushima nuclear plant with missiles and throw radiative material all over Japan. Meanwhile, instigate Okinawans to finally overthrown their Japanese / US marine oppressors and rejoin China.

5) Air and missile strikes on all US military bases in the region.

6) Type 094 submarines must prowl up and down the West and East Coasts of the US as deterrent to any US misadventure.

Sounds very Tom Clancy.. Not going to happen. Reads like some of the sort of thing that many accuse the US of.

The Filipinos may hold drills but build and operate bases away from the Philippines? I don't think so. They don't have the logistical ability to do so. Nor the money. And I don't think the US will help on this one.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Sounds very Tom Clancy.. Not going to happen. Reads like some of the sort of thing that many accuse the US of.

The Filipinos may hold drills but build and operate bases away from the Philippines? I don't think so. They don't have the logistical ability to do so. Nor the money. And I don't think the US will help on this one.

Roger604 should start writing a book, lol
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
There has been several incidents in the disputed areas in the South China Sea so far this year. And the most serious one is this allegation of a PLAN warship firing on fishermen:

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China fired at Filipino fishermen in Jackson atoll
By Yvonne Chua, VERA Files | The Inbox – Thu, Jun 2, 2011

By Tessa Jamandre, VERA Files

"This is Chinese Warship 560. You are in the China territory. Leave the area immediately."

Upon hearing this warning through a marine band radio, three Philippine boats fishing in Quirino, or Jackson atoll, a Philippine-claimed islet off Palawan in the disputed Spratly Islands, scampered away.

But the Chinese warship still fired three shots at the vessels F/V Jaime DLS, F/V Mama Lydia DLS and F/V Maricris 12. The Philippine Nay later identified the Chinese warship as Dongguan, a Jianghu-V Class missile frigate.

The incident in the South China Sea happened on Feb. 25—before March when the Philippine-commissioned seismic vessel was reportedly harassed in Reed Bank in western Palawan and before the Chinese vessels laid steel posts and a buoy in May in the Amy Douglas (Iroquois) Bank southwest of Reed Bank which Manila said is within its 200-mile exclusive economic zone.

Yet while the Philippine government protested the March and May incidents, one by note verbale another verbally, it did no such thing about the February incident.

Jackson atoll is a ring-shaped coral reef that has closely spaced islands on it encircling a lagoon. It is a rich fishing ground within Palawan's 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone and belongs to the Kalayaan Island Group (KIG) which under Philippine law is part of the country's regime of islands.

A military report seen by VERA Files said that on Feb. 25, while anchored at Jackson atoll, the three Philippine fishing boats were approached by the Chinese warship, which introduced itself through a marine band radio and demanded that the Filipino fishermen leave at once.

F/V Maricris 12, however, experienced trouble removing its anchor, and its captain, Russel De la Cruz, pleaded with the Chinese warship, also through a marine band radio to "please wait for a while."

"However, the Chinese warship repeatedly answered, 'I will shoot you.' Then, De la Cruz heard three consecutive gunshots and saw the projectiles hit the surface of the water 0.3 nautical miles away from the position of F/V Maricris," the military report said.

F/V Maricris 12 had to cut its anchor lines in order to flee from what it sensed was imminent danger.

The gunshots were also heard by F/V Jaime DLS, which reported the incident by radio to the Philippine Navy detachment on Lawak Island which, in turn, relayed it to the Naval Station on Pag-Asa island until it reached the Naval Forces West headquarters in Palawan.

The three beleaguered fishing vessels proceeded to the Philippine-occupied Lawak where they sought refuge for two days. The Chinese warship was later sighted southeast of Lawak toward Patag Island, also held by the Philippines.

According to the military report, when F/V Maricris 12 returned to Jackson atoll on Feb. 28 to retrieve its anchor, it sighted three Chinese fishing vessels colored blue, red and green, exploiting the marine resources in the area.

The oil-rich Spratlys chain in the South China Sea is being claimed in part by the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei and wholly by China, Taiwan and Vietnam. Of the more or less 160 islands, Vietnam occuppies 25 islands; China, 12; the Philippines, nine; Malaysia, five, and Taiwan, one. Brunei does not occupy a single geographical feaure but has established a fishing zone that overlaps a southern reef.

Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin expressed alarm at the increasing Chinese incursions in the hotly contested Spratly Islands.

"Dumami yung intrusions. Ibig sabihin e, yung mga areas nasa lugar natin na wala tayong mga gwardya ay doon ang nilalagyan nila. In other words, gusto nila magtanim ng mga bandera nila sa ganun masabi nila sa kanila yung area (The incursions are rising. This means they are positioning themselves in areas that are ours but are unguarded. In other words, they want to plant flags to claim these places)," Gazmin said in a briefing Wednesday.

Besides the recent incidents at Jackson atoll, Reed Bank and Amy Douglas Bank, a Chinese marine vessel with a flat bed was sighted in Abad Santos or Bombay shoal on May 6, and the the Chinese Marine Surveillance ship 75 and Salvage/research Ship 707 were spotted steaming toward Southern Bank on May 21.

Armed Forces chief Eduardo Oban said the military will maintain the level of force in the disputed islands, but will also increase the operational tempo of its routine patrols and reconnaissance flights within the country's terroritorial boundaries.

On Tuesday, the Department of Foreign Affairs summoned the charge d'affaires of the Chinese Embassy in Manila to seek clarification on the recent sightings of a China Marine Surveillance (CMS) vessel and other People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) ships at the vicinity of the Amy Douglas Bank.

The Philippine Navy, through the fishermen, had recovered steel posts with Chinese markings that were put up in the area, according to Oban.

Foreign Affairs Secretary Albert F. del Rosario said, "Any new construction by China in the vicinity of the uninhabited Amy Douglas Bank is a clear violation of the 2002 ASEAN-China Declaration on the Conduct of Parties (DOC) in the South China Sea."

The Chinese vessels were first sighted by fishermen on May 24 and reported to the Philippine Navy the following day.

After receiving the report on May 26, the Navy headquarters in Manila ordered a ship deployed to the area to verify the sighting. Bad weather, however, hampered the immediate deployment of the ship to Amy Douglas.

By May 29, the Chinese vessels were no longer in the area, the posts had been dismantled and turned over to the Navy, and the buoy was no longer there.

The AFP intelligence department briefed Gazmin and Oban on the developments in the KIG on Monday and later Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario.

The Cabinet's National Security Cluster met Tuesday at the Villamor Airbase regarding the incident shortly before the President left for a state visit in Brunei, and a statement was subsequently issued by the DFA.

The DFA, however, did not hand the Chinese embassy a note verbale when it summoned the charge d'affaires on Tuesday.

This was unlike the diplomatic protest it issued in March when Chinese boats ordered a Philippine seismic vessel in Reed Bank to leave, and even maneuvered close to the Philippine vessel at least twice, apparently to show they would ram it.

The diplomatic protest seen by VERA Files raised four points to prove that Reed Bank is not part of the disputed area by projecting 85 nautical miles from the basepoint in the northern part of Palawan and not from the KIG. China questioned this during meetings with the Philippines, but did not reply in a diplomatic note.

The military acknowledged its lack of capability to confront foreign enemies, but said it is ready to defend the country. But it said it prefers diplomatic means as the first option in dealing with the South China Sea dispute.

"The option open to us is first the diplomatic protest. We are in no position to confront the forces that are intruding in our territory simply because we don't have the capability," Gazmin said.

He said the Chinese intrude into the disputed areas by initially setting up posts and then laying buoys to claim an area. The posts eventually become a lighthouse.

"Once this becomes a lighthouse these are boundaries of territories. So once that is established they can always claim that is theirs," the defense secretary said. "That is why it is our responsibility to make sure that this doesn't happen now and in the future."

He said the military is upgrading the capability of its maritime assets in the area to better guard the islands. "Hand-in-hand with this is the organization of our fishermen who provide us the necessary information and documentation needed to file a formal diplomatic protest," Gazmin said.

(VERA Files is put out by veteran journalists taking a deeper look at current issues. Vera is Latin for "true.")

Its rather strange that the Philippines government did not protest the incident where her fishermen were fired upon by the warship.
 
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