RedMercury
Junior Member
Calm down. They can steal our relics, but they'll never take our culture, history, and dignity.
Sino-British Opium War
- Thread starter Stronghjw
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BTW, a little factoid about Communism. Something that will irk Christian evangelists. Marx didn't even invent Communism. The early Christians did and they put it into practice.
Basically, early Christians lived in communes, which is the source of the word, Communism. In those communes, they gave up their worldly material possessions---remember this is what Christ said---so they could share these possessions with everyone in the communes equally.
As for the opium wars, its remarkable to think that the USA's dependence on Chinese goods and subsequent trade imbalance and wealth outflow has its historical precedents. It happened over two thousand years before with the Roman Empire with the Silk route, as the Romans lavished and wasted their wealth on their addiction to silk, which they only know is made from a mythical far off country known only as Serenica.
It also happened with the British Empire who became addicted to the Chinese porcelains, silk, and most of all, tea. The British however, ran out of things to pay for their addiction, considering that the Chinese would only accept silver, not even gold, as payment for these things. Pretty much there was nothing the British could sell to the Chinese, since the Chinese actually felt that the British stuff were barbarian, lacked the art and skill of the Chinese products. This is one of the things that fueled the Opium trade, when Opium is used instead to sell to the Chinese, and the money obtained from selling Opium is used to buy silk, porcelains (which soon entered into the English language as "china"), and of course, tea. Thus this began a cycle of draining economic wealth from China, from a country with the highest GDP in the world, to its impoverished state at the end of the Qing Dynasty.
Basically, early Christians lived in communes, which is the source of the word, Communism. In those communes, they gave up their worldly material possessions---remember this is what Christ said---so they could share these possessions with everyone in the communes equally.
As for the opium wars, its remarkable to think that the USA's dependence on Chinese goods and subsequent trade imbalance and wealth outflow has its historical precedents. It happened over two thousand years before with the Roman Empire with the Silk route, as the Romans lavished and wasted their wealth on their addiction to silk, which they only know is made from a mythical far off country known only as Serenica.
It also happened with the British Empire who became addicted to the Chinese porcelains, silk, and most of all, tea. The British however, ran out of things to pay for their addiction, considering that the Chinese would only accept silver, not even gold, as payment for these things. Pretty much there was nothing the British could sell to the Chinese, since the Chinese actually felt that the British stuff were barbarian, lacked the art and skill of the Chinese products. This is one of the things that fueled the Opium trade, when Opium is used instead to sell to the Chinese, and the money obtained from selling Opium is used to buy silk, porcelains (which soon entered into the English language as "china"), and of course, tea. Thus this began a cycle of draining economic wealth from China, from a country with the highest GDP in the world, to its impoverished state at the end of the Qing Dynasty.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Not surprising. Jesus Christ surely would not have identified himself with capitalism nor with many of those that use his name today. Isn't there a commandment violation in there? That's if you believe in what they say Jesus Christ was all about in the first place.
Also when the movie 300 became a hit, the usual suspects tried to identify themselves with the Spartans. I saw some historian being interviewed who said the Spatans were actually a "proto-communist" society.
Just like some portraits of Jesus have him with blonde hair, reality is much more different than some believe and has been turned over the years to accomdate familiarity.
Also when the movie 300 became a hit, the usual suspects tried to identify themselves with the Spartans. I saw some historian being interviewed who said the Spatans were actually a "proto-communist" society.
Just like some portraits of Jesus have him with blonde hair, reality is much more different than some believe and has been turned over the years to accomdate familiarity.
The Spartans would make Kim Il Jung look as liberal as Nancy Pelosi. Furthermore, they pretty much belong to the third sex and proud of it. In fact, part of their prowess in battle comes from this, because after all, they're fighting and protecting their own lovers as they fight side by side. I'm not sure if the usual suspects realize this. As a matter of fact, the Thebans also created their own elite unit of 300, based on paired third sex lovers, and this group, with some excellent leadership and innovation on the use of the Phalanx, literally owned the Spartans every time they fought.
Xerxes, the evil bad Persian king who was depicted trying to take away freedom from the Greeks, was actually a benevolent ruler that gave religious freedom to his subjects, in particular to the Jewish people. In the Hebrew and Catholic Bibles, his name is known as Asherus. And his wife is better known as Esther, as in Queen Esther in the Bible, born of the Jews.
The Roman Legions, as they espouse fighting for Truth, Honor and Justice, didn't do so in the name of Greek religions, but took those concepts from the Persian religion Mithranism, introduced to them by the Parthians. Much of the Roman Legions and the Emperors themselves were converted or partial to the Persian religions, and this religion is forever honored with the day now passed into history as Sunday.
Anyway, I got my own grudge against those who distort history for their own purposes, to twist and defame against those who rightfully deserve credit.
Xerxes, the evil bad Persian king who was depicted trying to take away freedom from the Greeks, was actually a benevolent ruler that gave religious freedom to his subjects, in particular to the Jewish people. In the Hebrew and Catholic Bibles, his name is known as Asherus. And his wife is better known as Esther, as in Queen Esther in the Bible, born of the Jews.
The Roman Legions, as they espouse fighting for Truth, Honor and Justice, didn't do so in the name of Greek religions, but took those concepts from the Persian religion Mithranism, introduced to them by the Parthians. Much of the Roman Legions and the Emperors themselves were converted or partial to the Persian religions, and this religion is forever honored with the day now passed into history as Sunday.
Anyway, I got my own grudge against those who distort history for their own purposes, to twist and defame against those who rightfully deserve credit.
Rising China
Junior Member
:china::china::china:
China demands return of Yves Saint Laurent treasures
BEIJING (Reuters) – China Thursday demanded the immediate return of two bronze sculptures taken during the Opium Wars in the 19th century and now up for auction by the estate of late French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent.
The sculptures, of a rabbit and a rat head, are due to be auctioned in Paris later this month, but China wants them back.
"Everyone knows that the related objects were plundered by the joint Anglo-French forces during the Second Opium War and are precious artefacts which have been overseas for many years," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told a news briefing.
The official Xinhua news agency said the two head sculptures were taken from Beijing's Imperial Summer Palace, burnt down by invading French and British forces in 1860. "China has incontrovertible ownership of those objects and they should be immediately returned," Jiang added.
Auctioning them would "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" and be contrary to international treaties, she said.
"We hope related parties give careful consideration to the matter," Jiang said.
Xinhua said China and France signed a 1995 convention on stolen or illegally exported cultural objects, "which stipulated that any cultural object looted or lost because of reasons of war should be returned without any limitation of time span."
But Xinhua also quoted an email from auction house Christie's which said the auction would go ahead.
"The YSL collection holds firm legal title to the heads and so we respectfully believe the auction will proceed," the reported quoted the email as saying.
(Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Nick Macfie)
China demands return of Yves Saint Laurent treasures
BEIJING (Reuters) – China Thursday demanded the immediate return of two bronze sculptures taken during the Opium Wars in the 19th century and now up for auction by the estate of late French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent.
The sculptures, of a rabbit and a rat head, are due to be auctioned in Paris later this month, but China wants them back.
"Everyone knows that the related objects were plundered by the joint Anglo-French forces during the Second Opium War and are precious artefacts which have been overseas for many years," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told a news briefing.
The official Xinhua news agency said the two head sculptures were taken from Beijing's Imperial Summer Palace, burnt down by invading French and British forces in 1860. "China has incontrovertible ownership of those objects and they should be immediately returned," Jiang added.
Auctioning them would "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" and be contrary to international treaties, she said.
"We hope related parties give careful consideration to the matter," Jiang said.
Xinhua said China and France signed a 1995 convention on stolen or illegally exported cultural objects, "which stipulated that any cultural object looted or lost because of reasons of war should be returned without any limitation of time span."
But Xinhua also quoted an email from auction house Christie's which said the auction would go ahead.
"The YSL collection holds firm legal title to the heads and so we respectfully believe the auction will proceed," the reported quoted the email as saying.
(Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Nick Macfie)
The_Zergling
Junior Member
I have much sympathy for China's argument here, but I really think the "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" device seems a bit presumptuous and rather overused...
RedMercury
Junior Member
I hope this is the last rhetorical shot and the next one will be action.
Mr T
Senior Member
What action can be taken? Realistically there can only be rhetoric in a case such as this. China's relations with France are already fragile. Doing something silly would be bad for both countries.
Rising China
Junior Member
:china::china::china:
China tries to stop Paris auction
Five other bronze animal heads from the same palace are displayed in Bejing
China has launched a legal bid to stop the sale of two 18th Century bronze statues at a Paris auction.
Beijing says the relics were looted 150 years ago and should be in a museum.
The sculptures - a rabbit's head and a rat's head - are part of a collection belonging to fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent, who died in 2008.
Auctioneers Christie's, selling the items, have not commented on China's demand. The bronzes are expected to sell for 10m euros (£8.8m; $12.6m).
Chinese lawyer Liu Yang told the French news agency AFP that papers had been filed late on Thursday to pull the items from the sale.
"Yesterday we applied to the court in Paris for an injunction to stop the sale of the bronzes through our lawyer in Paris, we are now waiting for the reply from the court," Mr Liu said.
The Associated Press said judges would probably rule on the case on Monday morning, just hours before the auction is due to start.
'Offensive to China'
China says the animal heads were part of a collection of 12 looted from the Old Summer Palace in Beijing in 1860 when it was sacked and burnt by French and British armies during the Second Opium War.
The animals represent the Chinese zodiac, and adorned a fountain built for the Emperor Qianglong.
China has managed to track down five of the other statues, which are now displayed in a Beijing museum.
Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said selling the two heads "offends the Chinese people and undermines their cultural rights".
Christie's has said that Yves Saint Laurent acquired the items legally and insisted earlier this month that the sale would go ahead.
The two bronzes are part of a three-day auction of hundreds of artworks belonging to the late designer - described as one of the best art collections in the world.
China tries to stop Paris auction
Five other bronze animal heads from the same palace are displayed in Bejing
China has launched a legal bid to stop the sale of two 18th Century bronze statues at a Paris auction.
Beijing says the relics were looted 150 years ago and should be in a museum.
The sculptures - a rabbit's head and a rat's head - are part of a collection belonging to fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent, who died in 2008.
Auctioneers Christie's, selling the items, have not commented on China's demand. The bronzes are expected to sell for 10m euros (£8.8m; $12.6m).
Chinese lawyer Liu Yang told the French news agency AFP that papers had been filed late on Thursday to pull the items from the sale.
"Yesterday we applied to the court in Paris for an injunction to stop the sale of the bronzes through our lawyer in Paris, we are now waiting for the reply from the court," Mr Liu said.
The Associated Press said judges would probably rule on the case on Monday morning, just hours before the auction is due to start.
'Offensive to China'
China says the animal heads were part of a collection of 12 looted from the Old Summer Palace in Beijing in 1860 when it was sacked and burnt by French and British armies during the Second Opium War.
The animals represent the Chinese zodiac, and adorned a fountain built for the Emperor Qianglong.
China has managed to track down five of the other statues, which are now displayed in a Beijing museum.
Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said selling the two heads "offends the Chinese people and undermines their cultural rights".
Christie's has said that Yves Saint Laurent acquired the items legally and insisted earlier this month that the sale would go ahead.
The two bronzes are part of a three-day auction of hundreds of artworks belonging to the late designer - described as one of the best art collections in the world.
Rising China
Junior Member
:china::china::china:
China seeks to halt auction of relics
Source: CCTV.com | 02-22-2009 14:19
A court in France will rule on a motion put forward by a group of Chinese lawyers who are trying to stop the auction house Christie's from selling two relics looted from Beijing's old summer palace. The auction is scheduled for Wednesday in Paris. China is voicing strong opposition to the sale of its lost treasures.
A court in France will rule on a motion put forward by a
group of Chinese lawyers who are trying to stop the auction
house Christie's from selling two relics looted from Beijing's
old summer palace.
Displaying age-old Chinese craftsmanship, nearly 150 years ago these bronze sculptures from the Qing Dynasty adorned the imperial summer resort known as Yuanmingyuan.
They were looted when the palace was burned by French and British forces during the Second Opium War in 1860.
Now, they belong to the Yves Saint Laurent Foundation which is looking to sell them.
China is strongly opposed.
Jiang Yu, Spokeswoman of Chinese Foreign Ministry said "It's a fact that the two bronze sculptures were looted from China by Anglo-French allied forces during the Second Opium War. China has undoubted ownership to these relics. And the looted relics should be returned to China."
China is indignant for good reasons.
The UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects stipulates that any looted or lost during wars should be returned without any limitation of time span.
However, because some countries hold looted relics never signed the convention, many experts believe it's hard to use it to retrieve lost treasures from overseas.
Studies have estimated there are currently over 1.6 million Chinese relics on display at museums in nearly 50 countries.
Over three-thousand Chinese relics have been retrieved through diplomatic and judicial efforts by the Chinese government.
The two treasures at the center of court action in Paris are estimated to be worth 8 to 10 million euros each.
The State Administration of Cultural Heritage opposes the auction of lost treasures, and also doesn't encourage Chinese to buy looted relics as a way of getting them back. Editor:Xiong Qu
China seeks to halt auction of relics
Source: CCTV.com | 02-22-2009 14:19
A court in France will rule on a motion put forward by a group of Chinese lawyers who are trying to stop the auction house Christie's from selling two relics looted from Beijing's old summer palace. The auction is scheduled for Wednesday in Paris. China is voicing strong opposition to the sale of its lost treasures.
A court in France will rule on a motion put forward by a
group of Chinese lawyers who are trying to stop the auction
house Christie's from selling two relics looted from Beijing's
old summer palace.
Displaying age-old Chinese craftsmanship, nearly 150 years ago these bronze sculptures from the Qing Dynasty adorned the imperial summer resort known as Yuanmingyuan.
They were looted when the palace was burned by French and British forces during the Second Opium War in 1860.
Now, they belong to the Yves Saint Laurent Foundation which is looking to sell them.
China is strongly opposed.
Jiang Yu, Spokeswoman of Chinese Foreign Ministry said "It's a fact that the two bronze sculptures were looted from China by Anglo-French allied forces during the Second Opium War. China has undoubted ownership to these relics. And the looted relics should be returned to China."
China is indignant for good reasons.
The UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects stipulates that any looted or lost during wars should be returned without any limitation of time span.
However, because some countries hold looted relics never signed the convention, many experts believe it's hard to use it to retrieve lost treasures from overseas.
Studies have estimated there are currently over 1.6 million Chinese relics on display at museums in nearly 50 countries.
Over three-thousand Chinese relics have been retrieved through diplomatic and judicial efforts by the Chinese government.
The two treasures at the center of court action in Paris are estimated to be worth 8 to 10 million euros each.
The State Administration of Cultural Heritage opposes the auction of lost treasures, and also doesn't encourage Chinese to buy looted relics as a way of getting them back. Editor:Xiong Qu
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