Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

No, at the end of the day, it was death of American lives that served as the catalyst. Americans weren't going to let their own people die and not take action, just that simple. I don't doubt that USA had ulterior motives, but those motives such as 'balance of power', compassion, or greed weren't enough to convince the public which was then very isolationist. If that were the case the United States would have intervened much earlier, indeed they would have intervened against Nazi Germany before that. I do agree with that being strong motives as most historians believed that Roosevelt wanted to intervene earlier in Europe, but he couldn't get the support until after Pearl Harbor.

Sure, China owes USA, if you follow that logic of 'owing', then the same would apply that the Soviet Union 'owing' the United States.

The US never formally fought Japanese on Chinese soil, aid was largely logistical and financial. "Flying Tigers" were volunteers and not actual military personal. Instead its primary support was acting as a second front whereby weakening and dividing the Japanese capabilities and operations. However they never did the actual fighting against the Japanese in China, it was done by the Chinese themselves.

While I have no doubt it IJA could conquer much of China, I have my reservations of its ability to hold it. The Japanese were superior in conventional warfare and mostly against the KMT's NRA, which Japan had a distinct advantage. However it would be bogged down for years in guerrilla warfare, especially devastating in Communist occupied West, and likely insurgents in former KMT strongholds.

Still I wonder how a unified China fared against Japan with Sun Yat-sen, or would Sun Yat-sen try to appease them. Both KMT and CCP were both not fully invested into the war against Japan. The CCP wanted to be in position where they could fight the KMT effectively after the War. The KMT also did not want to have their forces take the brunt of the Japanese, while the CCP built it forces and capability.

Just a comment to the time around 1940. A book anticipating the war in the Pacific, "The Ramparts We Watch" by a major Elliot in 1938 saw the war coming because the strengthening of Japans position in China would loose the Chinese market to the US.
The BBC once told me that Roosevelt sent a USN sloop around the Japanese possessions trying to attract fire from the Japanese near the end of 1941. The sloop escaped to Perth when the war broke out.
I read in a book about the history of aircraft carriers perhaps 40 years ago that on 4 December 1941 the USN flattops left Pearl Harbor and that the next day their crews were told that war with Japan was about to break out and that, were they to see a Japanese ship they would sink her. This suggests that the US knew pretty well when the attack was to be expected and that USN trusted that the battle ships would be safe enough, not knowing about the new way IJN had of dropping torpedoes into shallow water. The attack on Pearl Harbor was expected to convince the US population of the need to fight Japan which indeed it did.

is there some sort of secret protocol between the US and japan?according to the book "Imperial cruise" 1905 US japan summit ,both side decided the onlyway to avoid military showdown was to divide pacific between us and Japan.
unfortunately the author do not provide diplomatic document to back up his claim, but what if it is allegation was right?

At the time USN had a West Pacific fleet based in the US colony of The Philippines and the Royal Navy had a major presence in Chinese waters, including high up the Jangtse kiang. Both countries wouldn't think of making place for Japan, but after Japan's defeat of Imperial Russia it made sense to talk with Japan to prevent misunderstandings. So no division of the Pacific between US and Japan, because there were the Philippines and the British, and all three were very interested in the Chinese market, but talks about not hindering each other.

In4ser said:

Still I wonder how a unified China fared against Japan with Sun Yat-sen, or would Sun Yat-sen try to appease them. Both KMT and CCP were both not fully invested into the war against Japan. The CCP wanted to be in position where they could fight the KMT effectively after the War. The KMT also did not want to have their forces take the brunt of the Japanese, while the CCP built it forces and capability.

Click to expand...

People keep brining up this idea that the CCP was not "fully invested" in the war against Japan. I would like to ask: what do you mean by "fully invested"?

Yes, the CCP concentrated on building up their forces and avoiding direct confrontation with the Japanese forces. However, looking at the balance of military power between the Japanese and the CCP at the time, this is actually a very intelligent strategy.

The Hundred Regiments Battle showed that the CCP is willing to fight a large-scale battle if the opportunity favored them. Is it much of a surprise that such opportunities were few and far between?

Comparing the KMT battle record with the CCP battle record is very misleading. The KMT are desperately trying to stem Japanese advance. On a strategic level, they were forced to let the Japanese decide the time and place of battles. They were forced into massive, devastating battles that they lost again and again.

The CCP, on the other hand, were the guerilla troops. They operated behind enemy lines and were able to choose their own battles against the Japanese. Many people mistakenly fault Mao for building up CCP forces, as if throwing soldiers in vain against Japanese artillery, like the KMT did, would have done China any good!

They sabatoged and destoryed KMT supplies lines and were actively trying to convert KMT soldiers. You are navie if u think CCP weren't interested in fighting the KMT. No doubt censored by the Chinese after all it would be bad press and unpatriotic. both sides were self-interested and wished to use the Japanese to their advantage.

In4ser said:

They sabatoged and destoryed KMT supplies lines and were actively trying to convert KMT soldiers. You are navie if u think CCP weren't interested in fighting the KMT. No doubt censored by the Chinese after all it would be bad press and unpatriotic. both sides were self-interested and wished to use the Japanese to their advantage.

Click to expand...

When did I say that CCP wasn't interested in fighting the KMT? A more accurate statement would be the KMT never stopped wanting to fight the CCP!

I'm sure lots of minor skirmishes happened between CCP and KMT forces during the anti-Japan war, but that does not detract from the point that the CCP were also fully invested in fighting the Japanese. Don't forget that the CCP military was largely made up of peasants who lost families and loved ones to the Japanese! I don't think it would have sat very well with them if the CCP leadership was actively avoiding confrontation with the Japanese!

At the end of the day, the fact is: the CCP operated in enemy territory, they had active campaigns of guerilla warfare and sabotage, and the Japanese were ruthless toward any communist. Those facts alone tells us just how "invested" the CCP was in their fight against the Japanese!

I still do not understand your point as they do not contradict mine. You are just misunderstanding my words. One cannot be be fully invested in a singular goal, if one has differing objectives that of offsetting an 'ally' and his ability to fight the common enemy.

I'm not doubting the dedication or hardship of the soldiers, in fact here's a great quote about the hardships endured:
"We went on and on until we had less and less food to eat until it was all gone. Once all the food was gone, we ate our horses. Once the horses were gone, we ate our leather belts. When the belts were all gone, we then had nothing to eat.""

However what I doubting the whole organization, not the individual using its entire capacity like manpower and time to fight the japanese instead of say planning for combat with the other Chinese force.

Gents, I banned that troll shadowdragon. That was his third ID in our forum...In the future

If one wants an example of what a fully unified and coordinated CCP-KMT force would have performed in WW2, one only needs to look at the Red Army-Partisan coordination on the Eastern front as a case in point.