Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

[Alfa_Particle]

I am not clueless unlike you

Al-31 engine powers Su-27 and at maximum load thrust to weight is 0.75 !

And? Why shouldn't the next next generation fighter (a two generation gap, God help you) do better? I mean, they're both in the same weight class (relatively, not actually), why should the J-XD-S somehow opt for engines a class under? Ridiculous.

J-XD has far larger wings and no rudders, much better lift and far less drag.

Yup, let's ignore that the J-XD-S obviously more voluminous with IWBs and larger fuel tanks.

It literally makes zero sense for the J-XD-S to use WS-19s over 15s considering it's size, weight, and role. I have no idea why you're so insistent on it, nor why you find it acceptable.

 

[Schwerter_]

What's the expected maximum thrust of the WS-19? ~115 kN with afterburners?

WS-15 will exceed that dry, providing for, among other things, supercruise.

Honestly I have no idea, but 115kn at sea level with afterburner on sounds pretty reasonable.

I agree with the supercruise part, one has to consider TSFC together with thrust and having enough mil thrust is crucial for prolonged supersonic flight and by extension mission flexibility.

(edit: autocorrect messing with me as usual, *sigh*)

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

I criticized that person about such bold nonsensical assertion on powerplant.

As I have said I would not be surprised if it was WS-19 being used for J-XD.
My expectation is 12 ton force afterburner being close to baseline of Al-31.
Having 2 of them would at most be usable to lift a 36 ton heavy aircraft.

Al-31 engine powers Su-27 and at maximum load thrust to weight is 0.75 !
J-XD has far larger wings and no rudders, much better lift and far less drag.
If it had Al-31 and same maximum takeoff weight as Su-27, would be faster.
Especially considering aerodynamic drag of externally mounted armaments.

J-XD does not need same thrust to weight ratio as Su-27 for take off distance.

Have you ever seen any 5th-gen proper fighters with MTOWs that are in the mid-to-high 30s of tons that are powered by ~24-ton combined AB thrust, to begin with?

I am not clueless unlike you that demonstrates being uninformed on the topic.

Please, kindly take a mirror and have a good look into the mirror lmao.

 

[Alfa_Particle]

What's the expected maximum thrust of the WS-19? ~115 kN with afterburners?

WS-15 will exceed that dry, providing for, among other things, supercruise.

Honestly I have no idea, but 115kn at sea level with afterburner on sounds pretty reasonable.

I agree with the supercruise part, one has to consider TSFC together with thrust and having enough mil thrust is crucial for supersonic performances and by extension combat radius

127 kN wet.

 

[SinoAmericanCW]

127 kN wet.

Holy!

That's far higher than I imagined.

Do you have the equivalent figure, but with afterburners?

Edit: Wait, were you discussing the WS-19 or the WS-15?

 

[Schwerter_]

127 kN wet.

That sounds alarmingly high actually, I do hope they didn’t sacrifice high-altitude performance or service life to boost sea level thrust … but again they know their job much better that I do, probably they just did a really good job and designed one hell of an engine

 

[Alfa_Particle]

Holy!

That's far higher than I imagined.

Do you have the equivalent figure, but with afterburners?

Edit: Wait, were you discussing the WS-19 or the WS-15?

Wet means afterburners. I should've specified max AB.

WS-19, 127 kN max AB.

That sounds alarmingly high actually, I do hope they didn’t sacrifice high-altitude performance to boost sea level thrust … but again they know their job much better that me

Not really. With modern designs (especially medium-thrust class engines) it is completely doable. Check the EJ200 upgrades with 120 kN (the EJ2x0 stage 2 specifically, from what I know people working in "航发口" held it in high regard), and that was a design from just the 2000s IIRC?

 

[Schwerter_]

Wet means afterburners. I should've specified max AB.

WS-19, 127 kN max AB.


Not really. With modern designs (especially medium-thrust class engines) it is completely doable. Check the EJ200 upgrades with 120 kN (the EJ2x0 stage 2 specifically, from what I know people working in "航发口" held it in high regard), and that was a design from just the 2000s IIRC?

afiak those upgraded (stage 2?) EJ200s were in the testing phase and never really got in the air as nobody was particularly interested, but I could be very much mistaken. Either way I agree that producing that amount of thrust would definitely possible, F414 EPE would be another good example, it’s just that I didn’t imagine ws19 would have that much and got a bit taken aback

 

[SinoAmericanCW]

Wet means afterburners. I should've specified max AB.

WS-19, 127 kN max AB.

Thanks.

For some reason I read "wet" as "dry".

 

[Alfa_Particle]

afiak those upgraded (stage 2?) EJ200s were in the testing phase and never really got in the air as nobody was particularly interested, but I could be very much mistaken. Either way I agree that producing that amount of thrust would definitely possible, F414 EPE would be another good example, it’s just that I didn’t imagine ws19 would have that much and got a bit taken aback

Wouldn't be surprised. It was looking to be pretty darn expensive with all the bells and whistles it has (magnetic suspension bearings, blings instead of blisks, huge OPR increase, etc.). But "not interested" isn't an indication of "not good" as something can be very good in terms of performance, but other external factors (cost, complexity, etc.) can undermine people's interest in it (another example being the AVEN nozzle that the EJ200 has).

The F414/EPE is alright, but the EJ200/2x0 really is at least half a generation more advanced (I reckon a full generation). That's why I hope the WS-19 takes after the EJ2x0 (which is looking to be the case afaik).