Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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SinoSoldier

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There is every reason for 5th-gen aircraft to use 5th-gen engines. It's why the F-22 doesn't use F110s, and why we know the J-20 is meant to mount WS-15s.

The WS-13 is an indigenised RD-33, a 4th-gen engine. Its performance will not satisfy the requirements of a 5th-gen aircraft.

The J-20 might have been meant to mount WS-15s but technical limitations means that the J-20 might not necessarily will. A heavyweight fighter with interim engines would not fare well aboard aircraft carriers.

There isn't enough information about the WS-13E for anyone to pass judgment on whether it's suitable for a 5G fighter or not.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
There is every reason for 5th-gen aircraft to use 5th-gen engines. It's why the F-22 doesn't use F110s, and why we know the J-20 is meant to mount WS-15s.

The WS-13 is an indigenised RD-33, a 4th-gen engine. Its performance will not satisfy the requirements of a 5th-gen aircraft.

The WS-13 (indigenized RD-33) won't be the engine for F-31, last I heard the WS-13 project was already discontinued and replaced with another program (WS-13E? WS-13IPE?). That should be the initial engine until a true 5th gen one is available (WS-17?)
 

Blitzo

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The Liyang employee on CJDBY claims the planned completion date for the next-gen medium-thrust engine is 2022. He also claims the WS-15 was delayed to that same year but concedes that out of all the engine programs in China, he knows the least about WS-15. Liyang is responsible for the WS-13 and WS-13E so his information regarding medium-thrust programs should be quite credible.

Interesting.
Well here's to hoping his knowledge of the WS-15's progress is more negative than it actually is.


Initial batches of the WS-15 would certainly be delegated to PLAAF J-20s rather than naval ones, so a notional J-20H wouldn't necessarily have them by 2022.

I dont' think jobjed's post was speculating about a notional naval J-20 at all in his post, merely commenting about WS-15.

Additionally, there is no reason for an enlarged FC-31 to require new engines since such changes would not involve a drastic upscaling of the fuselage.

Well, before we even speculate about what kind of enlargement the FC-31 may undergo, it is worth asking whether the current engines (which I think is currently agreed to be a WS-13 variant) is even sufficiently powerful for FC-31 as it is.

i.e.: are the current WS-13 engines on FC-31 v2 simply a stopgap in the way that the Al-31s on the J-20s are stop gaps?
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Interesting.
Well here's to hoping his knowledge of the WS-15's progress is more negative than it actually is.




I dont' think jobjed's post was speculating about a notional naval J-20 at all in his post, merely commenting about WS-15.



Well, before we even speculate about what kind of enlargement the FC-31 may undergo, it is worth asking whether the current engines (which I think is currently agreed to be a WS-13 variant) is even sufficiently powerful for FC-31 as it is.

i.e.: are the current WS-13 engines on FC-31 v2 simply a stopgap in the way that the Al-31s on the J-20s are stop gaps?

The short answer is "no"; if the WS-13E has the rumored 90 kN of thrust, it would still fall short of the total thrust provided by 2xF414 or 1xF135.

Jobjed was implying that an enlarged variant would need different engines from the original variant, which is not necessarily true.
 

schrage musik

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I think a medium thrust engine powered, medium weight fighter for the navy is a big mistake. A medium weight fighter:
  1. wont be able to carry enough fuel to compete with F-22, B-21 (which likely has an air-to-air role) or the coming USN 6th gen fighter in terms of range. The American aircraft willl be able to hold the PLAN carrier group at risk from beyond the range of this fighter.
  2. wont be able to generate as much electrical power from its medium weight engines to power sensors and DEWs as the American planes from their large thrust engines
  3. wont be able to fly higher or supercruise faster than the American planes
The next gen fighter needs to be a heavy fighter because the threats it will face will be heavy aircraft. The J-31 has as much chance against an F-22 as the JF-17 has against a MKI
 

Blitzo

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The short answer is "no"; if the WS-13E has the rumored 90 kN of thrust, it would still fall short of the total thrust provided by 2xF414 or 1xF135.

Jobjed was implying that an enlarged variant would need different engines from the original variant, which is not necessarily true.

"no" as in "no WS-13E would not be enough to power FC-31 as sufficiently powerful engines" or "no WS-13E would not be interim engines for FC-31/aka WS-13Es are sufficiently powerful"?

And I don't think jobjed was implying that an enlarged version of FC-31 would need different engines than the original variant (FC-31 v2), but rather that FC-31 v2 would need the new generation of medium thrust engine rather than WS-13/E anyway. Whether the suggested "enlarged" FC-31 would need a new engine beyond the new generation of medium thrust engine is not something which has been broached as far as I can see.
 
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Blitzo

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I think a medium thrust engine powered, medium weight fighter for the navy is a big mistake. A medium weight fighter:
  1. wont be able to carry enough fuel to compete with F-22, B-21 (which likely has an air-to-air role) or the coming USN 6th gen fighter in terms of range. The American aircraft willl be able to hold the PLAN carrier group at risk from beyond the range of this fighter.
  2. wont be able to generate as much electrical power from its medium weight engines to power sensors and DEWs as the American planes from their large thrust engines
  3. wont be able to fly higher or supercruise faster than the American planes
The next gen fighter needs to be a heavy fighter because the threats it will face will be heavy aircraft. The J-31 has as much chance against an F-22 as the JF-17 has against a MKI

It's not that simple. It's a case of having a large number of lesser capable aircraft vs a smaller number of more capable aircraft, and it is seeking a good balance of having a sufficient number of aircraft at a sufficient level of capability where both numbers and capability are at the optimal compromise to achieve the requirements that the navy envisions.

If that means developing a medium fighter like FC-31 v2 or an "enlarged" FC-31 (whatever that means) then that is the navy's own assessment of their requirements, especially remembering that the navy's own mission and capabilities for its carriers would likely be operating in conjunction with land based air power and missile power in a joint way, in any sort of high intensity western pacific conflict scenario.
 

Lethe

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I think a medium thrust engine powered, medium weight fighter for the navy is a big mistake. A medium weight fighter:
  1. wont be able to carry enough fuel to compete with F-22, B-21 (which likely has an air-to-air role) or the coming USN 6th gen fighter in terms of range. The American aircraft willl be able to hold the PLAN carrier group at risk from beyond the range of this fighter.
  2. wont be able to generate as much electrical power from its medium weight engines to power sensors and DEWs as the American planes from their large thrust engines
  3. wont be able to fly higher or supercruise faster than the American planes
The next gen fighter needs to be a heavy fighter because the threats it will face will be heavy aircraft. The J-31 has as much chance against an F-22 as the JF-17 has against a MKI

I think your last sentence is a slight exaggeration, but I agree with your argument as to J-31's unsuitability as the solution for PLANAF going forward.

Recall in the 1990s when the US was facing the prospect of losing its long legs in the form of the A-6 and F-14. Even in the benign post-Cold War environment, relying only on F/A-18s would've meant that the carrier's offensive and defensive footprint would be only half the size that it used to be -- as anyone familiar with basic geometry knows, a linear reduction in range reduces the area that can be covered by the airwing by a much greater proportion. Conversely, a 25% increase in range increases the aircraft's potential area of action by more than 50%.

Hence the major criteria for Super Hornet: more range.

Hence the major point of differention for F-35C vs. F-35A: more range (even at the expense of performance).
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
wont be able to carry enough fuel to compete with F-22, B-21 (which likely has an air-to-air role) or the coming USN 6th gen fighter in terms of range. The American aircraft willl be able to hold the PLAN carrier group at risk from beyond the range of this fighter.

Range is only one variable out of a multitude that the PLAN has to consider. Whatever properties that reduce its range could very well provide other advantages in certain areas (e.g. the # of aircraft carried per vessel).

wont be able to generate as much electrical power from its medium weight engines to power sensors and DEWs as the American planes from their large thrust engines

Very unlikely. There is zero reason to believe that medium-thrust engines are insufficiently powerful to support a fighter's avionics and sensors.

wont be able to fly higher or supercruise faster than the American planes

Speed and supercruise depend on the thrust of the engines, the mass of the aircraft, as well as the drag coefficient brought about by its fuselage design.

The next gen fighter needs to be a heavy fighter because the threats it will face will be heavy aircraft. The J-31 has as much chance against an F-22 as the JF-17 has against a MKI

A fighter's weight class does not imply its combat capabilities in any way. The FC-31's small size and lighter weight brings about a different set of qualities than does a heavyweight fighter. Whichever quality the PLAN finds the most important is up to them.

"no" as in "no WS-13E would not be enough to power FC-31 as intended engines" or "no WS-13E would not be interim engines for FC-31"?

And I don't think jobjed was implying that an enlarged version of FC-31 would need different engines than the original variant (FC-31 v2), but rather that FC-31 v2 would need the new generation of medium thrust engine rather than WS-13/E anyway. Whether the suggested "enlarged" FC-31 would need a new engine beyond the new generation of medium thrust engine is not something which has been broached as far as I can see.

WS-13E would not be sufficient as the FC-31's intended engines. Something with ~100 kN wet thrust would be a good start.
 

Blitzo

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WS-13E would not be sufficient as the FC-31's intended engines. Something with ~100 kN wet thrust would be a good start.

Okay, yes that's the position I hold as well.

And I think that is the new generation engine jobjed was referring to for powering FC-31, not an enlarged fc-31
 
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