Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
taxiya said:
In your logic, you would say a Tesla Model 3 (not yet produced) would be inferior to ANY e-cars running on the road now? And you will only say that Model 3 is more advanced when it hits the road? But until then Tesla can't beat something with nothing?
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Tesla had investor funding to develop their products, and the Model 3 isn't substantially different than cars they already produced and sold to consumers. There's demand for the car, and no new barriers to entry.

Would you have said the same thing 5 years ago about F-35 being inferior to a F-16?

Come on, we all know what is superior even it never see the light on the road or sky.
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The F-35 was almost guaranteed to be successful, because it had government funding and commitments to buy from the US Air Force, Navy, and Marines. In addition, Lockheed Martin made sure it had absolute Congressional support by setting up production in 45 of the 50 states, making it "too big to fail." All Lockheed had to do was deliver an awesome war machine, and it apparently did just that. And now, foreigners are lining up to buy it.

What of the above applies to the J-31?
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Deino said:
If it would indeed only be a misunderstanding, then I apologise, but given Your "posting-history" here it I'm sure this "rant" was not made by coincidence !
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Dieno, I think a fair reading of my posting history would show copious balance, and likely more so than most SDF posters. I say that because while generally positive about China, I'm not married to either 'China is awesome' nor 'China is crap' ideals, and will call good/bad/inbetween as I see it. Do I make mistakes? Heck yeah! Am I either a fanboi or a hater? Nope, not even close.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Lethe said:
It's questionable whether the US carriers even need to be as large as they are, so I don't expect that China is going to rush to emulate them, especially given China's more restrained strategic objectives.
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You seem to be mixing up overall size of the fleets with specific ships.

The main question to ask the USN is if it needs as many ships, especially large ships like Ticos and Burkes, rather than if carriers are too big.

Even if the Ford is too big for US needs, that does not mean a Ford sized carrier would be oversized for the PLAN bearing in mind the size difference between the J15 and F18, and J20 vs F35.

China has zero interest in building a fleet as large as the USN, but that does not mean it should keep all of its ship classes below the size of their USN counterparts.
 
Lethe

Lethe

Captain
plawolf said:
You seem to be mixing up overall size of the fleets with specific ships.

The main question to ask the USN is if it needs as many ships, especially large ships like Ticos and Burkes, rather than if carriers are too big.

Even if the Ford is too big for US needs, that does not mean a Ford sized carrier would be oversized for the PLAN bearing in mind the size difference between the J15 and F18, and J20 vs F35.

China has zero interest in building a fleet as large as the USN, but that does not mean it should keep all of its ship classes below the size of their USN counterparts.
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The question-mark regarding the size of the Ford class is because the US carrier air wing is significantly smaller than it used to be and because precision munitions have made high sortie rates less important than they used to be. F-14s were in the same size class as J-20 btw. China's carriers will be more focused on sea control than US carriers also, further reducing the importance of sustained sortie rate, large magazine size, aviation fuel capacity, etc.

Not sure what the relevance of the other stuff is, but I disagree with that too. China will almost certainly end up operating more warships than the US precisely because China will have a greater proportion of small- and medium-sized combatants in its fleet, and both conventional and nuclear boats under the waves. Indeed, if you count 056s (let alone 022s) China already has more combatants than USN.
 
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FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Lethe said:
The question-mark regarding the size of the Ford class is because the US carrier air wing is significantly smaller than it used to be and because precision munitions have made high sortie rates less important than they used to be. F-14s were in the same size class as J-20 btw. China's carriers will be more focused on sea control than US carriers also, further reducing the importance of sustained sortie rate, large magazine size, aviation fuel capacity, etc.

Not sure what the relevance of the other stuff is, but I disagree with that too. China will almost certainly end up operating more warships than the US precisely because China will have a greater proportion of small- and medium-sized combatants in its fleet, and both conventional and nuclear boats under the waves. Indeed, if you count 056s (let alone 022s) China already has more combatants than USN.
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Agree but for Ford " smaller " CAW in peace time, USN with in more 4 USMC F-18s Sqns specialised and used regurlarly in CVNs have 39 + 1 Res Sqn : 40 ! for 9 CAW in war time normaly max 6 CVNs used ( Desert Storm 6, Iraqi Freedom 2003 5 carriers ) so they are enough Sqns for at less a part of CVNs deployed get 5 combattants Sqns in addtion later each CAW have about 6 UAV tankers and 1 EA-18G eventualy with more orders up to 3 in addition VAQ with E-2D have one E-2 in more 5, 4 E-2C.

USN Aviation have 830 fighters !
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Deino said:
Pardon, but that simply has to be so ! Don't You know "America FIRST" ! :p:D
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https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/things-that-really-bother-you.t6943/page-9#post-440331
plawolf said:
You seem to be mixing up overall size of the fleets with specific ships.

The main question to ask the USN is if it needs as many ships, especially large ships like Ticos and Burkes, rather than if carriers are too big.

Even if the Ford is too big for US needs, that does not mean a Ford sized carrier would be oversized for the PLAN bearing in mind the size difference between the J15 and F18, and J20 vs F35.

China has zero interest in building a fleet as large as the USN, but that does not mean it should keep all of its ship classes below the size of their USN counterparts.
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The Issue for the US is one of Global reach. The USN is the largest fleet in the World, but recent development of Anti access sea denial technologies and their proliferation has the USN in a quandary. If a Super carrier can be sunk should they be placed at risk and are there ways to counter those AASD technologies?
That is the Debate.
Now As to China and its carrier dreams its a question of how should they be used and what should they be used for. US Supercarriers are a offencive capability unmatched by any other. They allow Power projection far beyond the US continental range.
The Question for the PLAN Carrier Navy is do they need that kind of capacity and can they afford it? We know the PLAN wants atleast 3 carriers and they want to build those in the PRC and equip their own birds. near term The machines we know are under building by the PLAN are not Ford class supercarriers. and will not be ready until the Early 2020's for full operations. IF they intend Super carriers that is the more distant future at a time when the J20 and J31 are far more mature.
The J20 is a fine fighter but for the Navy does the Delta wing allow the low speed performance for carrier ops? a Navalized FC31 uses a wing of a similar type to that of the F/A18 and F35C Both known Carrier capable fighters.
Naval operations favor multirole fighters as you have less space even in a Super carrier to store specialized machines and spare parts. having a more medium weight fighter allows aircraft more carrier friendly.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
We know two important facts regarding the J-31, and they are PLAAF and PLANAF have shown little interests in the plane, and no one outside China has picked up development costs. The plane itself is supposed to be a 5th gen aircraft, and Shengyang Aircraft said in 2014 Zhuhai Air Show it's "intended to provide advanced defense capabilities in close-in air support, aerial bombing, and air interdiction operations." That's not a lot of information to go on.

We've seen only two demonstration models take to the sky, and no one can say with confidence it'll ever go into production. Few nations have shown much interests in it, and none have offered co-development funds. And why should they? It's vaporware at this point.

That's the reason I say right now the J-7/F-7 is more capable than the J-31. In fact, it's infinitely more capable, because you can't beat something with nothing.
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Your stupidity and stubbornness are amazing, as laid out for everyone to see. The comparison is this:

J-7 vs. J-31 fully tested, optimized, weapons suite, avionics integrated, armed, pilots trained, put into production.

If you thought, "Ohhh, but that's not what you said! I thought you meant J-7 as it is vs. J-31 as it is, prototype hauled out of the garage on 5 min. notice!" then that's because you have no common sense whatsoever. Nobody would ever make that stupid comparison. It's not something vs. nothing; you are looking at a god damn airplane in front of you that doubtlessly can be fully fitted out to modern combat standards. If not already, then in a couple days of fitting out, it can doubtlessly fire a missile your house and blow it up. Would you then say that nothing flew by your house and blew it up? LOL The only question is whether or not it's worth its price tag.

You remind me of a kid in physics class. The teacher asked, "If you could have a spoonful of boiling water thrown at you or you could have a bathtub of boiling water thrown at you, which would you prefer?" Every one chose the spoonful and this 1 kid chose the bathtub full. When asked why, he said, "Actually, it doesn't make a difference to me because boiling water is at 100 degrees, which is the heat of vaporization, meaning that once you throw it, it would all become gas and disappear into nothing!" The teacher looked at him and said, "If someone threw a bathtub of boiling water at your face... in real life... you expect it to... disappear?" And we all laughed and laughed at him because he's an idiot who tried to apply advanced concepts and ideas so hard, that he forgot his common sense.

This is absolutely you right now.
 
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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
manqiangrexue said:
Your stupidity and stubbornness are amazing, as laid out for everyone to see. The comparison is this:

J-7 vs. J-31 fully tested, optimized, weapons suite, avionics integrated, armed, pilots trained, put into production.

If you thought, "Ohhh, but that's not what you said! I thought you meant J-7 as it is vs. J-31 as it is, prototype hauled out of the garage on 5 min. notice!" then that's because you have no common sense whatsoever. Nobody would ever make that stupid comparison. It's not something vs. nothing; you are looking at a god damn airplane in front of you that doubtlessly can be fully fitted out to modern combat standards. If not already, then in a couple days of fitting out, it can doubtlessly fire a missile your house and blow it up. Would you then say that nothing flew by your house and blew it up? LOL The only question is whether or not it's worth its price tag.

You remind me of a kid in physics class. The teacher asked, "If you could have a spoonful of boiling water thrown at you or you could have a bathtub of boiling water thrown at you, which would you prefer?" Every one chose the spoonful and this 1 kid chose the bathtub full. When asked why, he said, "Actually, it doesn't make a difference to me because boiling water is at 100 degrees, which is the heat of vaporization, meaning that once you throw it, it would all become gas and disappear into nothing!" The teacher looked at him and said, "If someone threw a bathtub of boiling water at your face... in real life... you expect it to... disappear?" And we all laughed and laughed at him because he's an idiot who tried to apply advanced concepts and ideas so hard, that he forgot his common sense.

This is absolutely you right now.
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Kiddo, get a grip on your impulses and try again with reasoning rather than name calling. I'll grant you a fair hearing, but it would require you to use facts and reason over emotion outbursts. The latter might make you feel good for a spell, but doesn't quite cut it with rational people.
 
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