Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

Deino said:

Maybe a strange or even stupid question: But how far can these Chinese enterprises act individually and develop - completely on own resources - a project like this ??

I really can't believe that this is a private venture only. Maybe I simply do not understand the structure of the Chinese aviation industry good enough but since these are all state-owned enterprises I tend to say that this is in fact a silently PLA-baked or at least supported program, that runs in parallel to the J-20 with a much lower priority but for the future requirement it is indeed planned to be introduced ... if successful. As such development proceeds at a lower level and even more it can act as a PR-action to show the achievements of the Chinese Industry, to gain interest from foreign countries to assist and co-found that program .... until founds can be officially allocated to run it on a higher priority !

By the way I never noticed this airbrake before ...

Deino

Click to expand...

Have you ever heard of stories where the first born in the family being regarded as the rightful heir thus became the favourite child? It is kind of like that. SAC has been the goto plant for China's top jet fighters for a very long time, while other plants had to pick up scraps or left to fend for themselves. Time has changed, but the thought process of some people haven't caught up. Today, there are still some within China's aviation industry (AVIC) who see SAC as the rightful plant, deserved to design and manufacture China's current and future top jet fighters. So as you can imagine, SAC gets cut quite a bit of slacks, which somewhat explains how SAC got all the money.

The following is basically just a summary for all the rumors over the years, so take it with a grain of salt.

The competition between CAC and SAC is regarded by some people as an unfair one. They accused Song Wencong of making wild performance promises about J-20 that he could never have met when the tender was submitted, as opposed to SAC's more realistic proposal. To paraphase the words of these people "CAC won via PowerPoint presentations".

Keep in mind that AVIC is mother of all China's aviation companies. As the rumor goes, SAC complained, and AVIC carved out part of J-20 design work from CAC and gave that to SAC -- the famous aft-fuselage section. Not long after, we also heard rumors about personnel transfers made by AVIC, such as SAC engineers getting promoted into CAC, and Yang Wei (Chief designer of J-20) being promoted out of CAC. The rumor says that PLAAF stepped in and put a stop to that last one.

The bigger issue is that losing the project has a cascade effect down to SAC's suppliers, whose revenue streams for the next decade become uncertain as CAC uses different suppliers. CAC uses a different method to pick suppliers than SAC, but I disgress. There is also the importance of obtaining knowhow on building 4-th generation fighter for SAC. When SAC proposed the building of the 31001 demonstrator, AVIC threw in support. To paraphase the words of some people from AVIC, "these companies still need to eat".

Again, I need to remind you that these are all just rumors. To support 31001, AVIC sold huge amount of its assets. Being the mother of all aviation companies of China, AVIC is also able to allocate fundings. Or specifically, extract revenues from other profitable plants such as CAC and XAC, then give the money to SAC. And that is how this renegade, blackhole of money project came to be.

Deino said:

Maybe a strange or even stupid question: But how far can these Chinese enterprises act individually and develop - completely on own resources - a project like this ??

I really can't believe that this is a private venture only. Maybe I simply do not understand the structure of the Chinese aviation industry good enough but since these are all state-owned enterprises I tend to say that this is in fact a silently PLA-baked or at least supported program, that runs in parallel to the J-20 with a much lower priority but for the future requirement it is indeed planned to be introduced ... if successful. As such development proceeds at a lower level and even more it can act as a PR-action to show the achievements of the Chinese Industry, to gain interest from foreign countries to assist and co-found that program .... until founds can be officially allocated to run it on a higher priority !

By the way I never noticed this airbrake before ...

Deino

Click to expand...

All large state owned companies, especially in sensitive industries like aircraft manufacturer, there is always a high ranking political official appointed by government. And AVIC can not act on major project with-out a go ahead from the central government.

Central government and PLA are separate entities thus even if PLAAF does not want J-31, AVIC with consent from the central government can still proceed to develope J-31 with export sales and PLAN stealth fighter requirement in mind.

Central governments approval may come with the thinking of sales and support for friendly countries, particulary Pakistan,

31001 obviously is a demostrator aircraft since since is only one flying aircraft. So even if the project has to be stopped, financial losses will be kept at minimum. While test data can still be applied on future projects. But keep in mind China may have to supply stealth fights to Pakistan in futue when India inducted stealth fighters, it is unlikely the project will be abandoned.

Deino said:

Maybe a strange or even stupid question: But how far can these Chinese enterprises act individually and develop - completely on own resources - a project like this ??

I really can't believe that this is a private venture only. Maybe I simply do not understand the structure of the Chinese aviation industry good enough but since these are all state-owned enterprises I tend to say that this is in fact a silently PLA-baked or at least supported program, that runs in parallel to the J-20 with a much lower priority but for the future requirement it is indeed planned to be introduced ... if successful. As such development proceeds at a lower level and even more it can act as a PR-action to show the achievements of the Chinese Industry, to gain interest from foreign countries to assist and co-found that program .... until founds can be officially allocated to run it on a higher priority !

By the way I never noticed this airbrake before ...

Deino

Click to expand...

It's not a private venture only. It got funding from PLA even though it did not have an official designation. I'm assuming that they won't get more funding unless this gets picked up by PLA, but I highly doubt SAC is bleeding cash from this project.

Engineer said:

Keep in mind that AVIC is mother of all China's aviation companies. As the rumor goes, SAC complained, and AVIC carved out part of J-20 design work from CAC and gave that to SAC -- the famous aft-fuselage section. Not long after, we also heard rumors about personnel transfers made by AVIC, such as SAC engineers getting promoted into CAC, and Yang Wei (Chief designer of J-20) being promoted out of CAC. The rumor says that PLAAF stepped in and put a stop to that last one.

Click to expand...

Very interesting account! Seems that an inclination to unilinear evolution obtains in the AVIC culture. We can only hope that they come to appreciate the many advantages offered by parallel evolution.

Deino said:

Maybe a strange or even stupid question: But how far can these Chinese enterprises act individually and develop - completely on own resources - a project like this ??

I really can't believe that this is a private venture only. Maybe I simply do not understand the structure of the Chinese aviation industry good enough but since these are all state-owned enterprises I tend to say that this is in fact a silently PLA-baked or at least supported program, that runs in parallel to the J-20 with a much lower priority but for the future requirement it is indeed planned to be introduced ... if successful. As such development proceeds at a lower level and even more it can act as a PR-action to show the achievements of the Chinese Industry, to gain interest from foreign countries to assist and co-found that program .... until founds can be officially allocated to run it on a higher priority !

By the way I never noticed this airbrake before ...

Deino

Click to expand...

I think the SAC and CAC are not really competitors in the normal commercial enterprise sense. I do think all of the state-owned enterprises in the high-end of the business share technology details. Plus, all of the subsystems are designed and manufactured by different state institutes anyway.

Funding wise, since SAC is state owned, and J/FC-31 is definitely state sanctioned, some extra funding must have been allocated to it. Whether that funding comes from the military, or from the state-department is however another question. My guess is that the funding , or at least the majority of it, does not come from military.

janjak desalin said:

Very interesting account! Seems that an inclination to unilinear evolution may still obtain in the AVIC culture. We can only hope that they come to appreciate the many advantages offered by processes of parallel evolution.

Click to expand...

take a chill pill janjak, reading this gave me a headache dude???? WHUT R U talkin about man??? and then rewrite your sentence in a clear, concise statement, remember, its called "communication" meaning we both need to understand what your saying???? and yes, I am a teacher!

Air Force Brat said:

take a chill pill janjak, reading this gave me a headache dude???? WHUT R U talkin about man??? and then rewrite your sentence in a clear, concise statement, remember, its called "communication" meaning we both need to understand what your saying???? and yes, I am a teacher!

Click to expand...

I think what he is trying to say is monopoly is not good. It's better to spread the wealth.

kwaigonegin said:

I think what he is trying to say is monopoly is not good. It's better to spread the wealth.

Click to expand...

If you hadn't replied with a quote, I wouldn't have had a clue. My ignore list grows daily, and with good reason; arrogance abounds, here, it seems.

Deino said:

By the way I never noticed this airbrake before ...

Deino

Click to expand...

Here's a pic where it's more pronounced.

AssassinsMace said:

Here's a pic where it's more pronounced.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

I had never noticed that, it is odd that we never see the brakes deployed, on the J-20 nor the J-31, if you watch F-15s they will be deployed on almost every approach??? I would imagine that on most applications you might possibly pick up an "aerodynamic rumble" or burble on deployment. Its obvious that the "drag chute " is "way Kooler", but can only be deployed after touchdown, while the speed brake deployed on approach, gives you the option of "spooling up" the engines and carrying a little more power. So the question is, do they just not like to use the brake and prefer the chute, or does the brake induce some type of aerodynamic pitch oscillation or some other unpleasant side effect? (always possible when you deploy a large surface that it may have some negative affect?)

On the F-15 the brake seemed to stabilize and help manage the approach, so I have wondered, particularly with the J-20 why it wasn't deployed as a matter of course??? On of the supposed advantages of placement behind the cockpit was some very productive drag on approach without significant trim changes?

I have usually limited my flap deployment on the Cessna 150 and 172 to 10-20 degrees on the approaches and landings that I fly these days as the 30-40 degree positions do cause a most unpleasant rumble as they disrupt airflow over the horizontal stabilizer and elevator, and they greatly increase the amount of aft stick necessary for a "clean flare" as you arrest your decent and can create problems in a crosswind landing or even a go around, as you must get the flaps up to 20 degrees to get a decent climb rate on a go around. In fact Cessna limited flap travel on the 152 a redesign of the 150 to 30 degrees for the reasons listed.