I have seen the F104 in the operational days. I have touched it many times and it was a shocking short winged plane that was not to be a good fighter/interceptor in any way. Like usual the USA dumped it and their slaves had to obey. Same happened later and before the F104. There were many lot better alternatives but what can you do. Was it good in anything? No. Just being fast means nothing if you cannot do anything else and you are indeed very unforgiven plane to fly. Somewhere with F104G (German) it became something but still to little. By the way, PAF got some F104A and the adding of the Vulcan was their idea...
Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
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My memory was not good enough. I have now looked at the wiki on F-104 users, which said that Spain lost none of its 21 Starfighters in 7 years and 17000 flying hours, Germany lost 292 of 916 and 115 pilots, Belgium lost 41 of 113. Italy lost 137 of 360, 38% of its F-104s in 928,000 flying hours (14.7 aircraft every 100,000 hrs). Accounts for other countries are less detailed. See
I well remember seeing the tail hook on them.
I didn't know about P-39. Thank you.
English expressions with Dutch derive from the 17th century when the Dutch defeated the English in several wars and incidents except in the First Dutch War (1652–54).
Quickie
Colonel
OT again.
How did this compared to the safety record of A-4 Skyhawk. What I heard was the the refurbished ones sold to a certain countries have a comparable record of crashing to the F-104.
I suspect the record of new A-4s that came out straight from the factory should be much better.
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The German Starfighter case is a bit of a special issue I think. The F-104 was meant as a high speed interceptor to hunt down supersonic sovjet bombers. And that's pretty much all the design was, and it was radical already. But then the bomber threat partially went away since ICBMs took over.
So the plane got modified into a multirole fighter / low altitude tactical bomber, meaning structural changes and modifications, even before the basic variant was really sorted out. Still the plane got rushed into service, into an AirForce that was only just restarting operations with almost state of the art jets. Pilot as well as technician training was insuficient. Most personal obviously left after WWII and then came back with gaps in training and knowledge. And retraining was done half heartedly. That, combined with a new, then high tech, not yet fine tuned jet was of course a perfect set-up for f**k-up.
After some years when the Starfighter crises was through and reforms were made, the safety record got better, not really good, but it definitely improved. Especially towards the end most pilots loved their Starfighters for their performance.
So the plane got modified into a multirole fighter / low altitude tactical bomber, meaning structural changes and modifications, even before the basic variant was really sorted out. Still the plane got rushed into service, into an AirForce that was only just restarting operations with almost state of the art jets. Pilot as well as technician training was insuficient. Most personal obviously left after WWII and then came back with gaps in training and knowledge. And retraining was done half heartedly. That, combined with a new, then high tech, not yet fine tuned jet was of course a perfect set-up for f**k-up.
After some years when the Starfighter crises was through and reforms were made, the safety record got better, not really good, but it definitely improved. Especially towards the end most pilots loved their Starfighters for their performance.
OT, we are here far from J-31.
It was as Scratch describes. But at the time there were other candidates. We can be happy F-105 was not selected. But Mirage III was a serious possibility, SAAB Draken less so as Sweden is not a member of NATO. Belgium bought 106 Mirage III beside 113 F-104. The European built F-104 were all F-104G, built by two consortia in Germany as well as in The Netherlands, Belgium and Italy, except for the F-104S that were later built in Italy. And Italy and Belgium lost a larger part of their Starfighters in accidents than Germany.
The F-104G was selected before the first one was built, let alone flown. Reminds one of JSF.
It was as Scratch describes. But at the time there were other candidates. We can be happy F-105 was not selected. But Mirage III was a serious possibility, SAAB Draken less so as Sweden is not a member of NATO. Belgium bought 106 Mirage III beside 113 F-104. The European built F-104 were all F-104G, built by two consortia in Germany as well as in The Netherlands, Belgium and Italy, except for the F-104S that were later built in Italy. And Italy and Belgium lost a larger part of their Starfighters in accidents than Germany.
The F-104G was selected before the first one was built, let alone flown. Reminds one of JSF.
Now Master Delft, JSF is a puppy dog, read the reports of flying the B model compared to the Harrier by the English test pilots, as long as the puffer keeps putin along, all should be good, as Flanker crash illustrates, this is a dangerous business, sing along now, High Way to the Danger Zone, take ya right into the Danger ZZZZOOONNNNEEE! Delft your off key, pick it up Scratchers,,,,,,DA DA DAT DAT DA!!!!!... Brat OUT!
If JSF turns out to be successful it will be due to the spending of an excessive amount of time and resources on its development.
That F-35B will be more easily handled than an aircraft whose development started more than half a century ago is not much of an accomplishment.
Have another cup of coffee, and put some sugar in it, I told you, you were off key, I wasn't talking about your singing, but sadly loosing the Chinese Flanker does illustrate that gen 4 aircraft remain a handfull, the F-22 and the F-35 have an explary safety record compared to legacy fighters. That the F-35B is so much easier to fly than the Harrier remains an astounding engineering feat related to the FBW, cheer up, the engineers got it right, and that "should" make you happy now that GB is building carriers with your beloved ramp, and purchasing a grand Harrier little sister. Brat
Back on Topic, where is the J-31, and will it continue to be pursued, or has the new Guv shut her down?????
The Flanker crash has more to do with the fact that it was a trainee pilot at the stick than some difficulty in flying the airplane. Note you said "English test pilots", which by nature implies these are experienced vets with thousands of flying hours. If you put a test pilot with thousands of hours in a Flanker, he could probably fly it with his girlfriend in the back seat giving him a reacharound.
Wrong, at this stage you have NO basis for injecting such a comment, and while it may be true that the front seater was a student, the elevated back seat is home to the very experienced IP, who "saves" the aircraft each time a student places it in an unsafe condition. My own Dad was an IP in the C-130, and had over 6,000 flying hours in military aircraft of all types without accident, you don't become an IP unless you are Highly proficient with the aircraft and its myriad systems since much of flight traing occurs in a classroom-simulator-aircraft progression. Anyone flying fighter aircraft is a very proficient/superior aviator in his own right! Of far more danger is the squadron check-pilot, who must give the brass their check rides, to "wash out the boss" is to take away his flying job. My Dad was the preferred IP by those needing a check-ride, as he was a very superior pilot and teacher as well as a kind and grascious, he wouldn't pass some-one who wasn't safe, and he wouldn't fail someone who needed more "air-work" to regain his proficiency, that my friend is where many of these incidents occur.
A Flanker is a very high performance aircraft, with many systems/subsytems, the failure of any or many of these systems is classified as an in-flight emergency, flying it safely demands your full attention at all times, when you are flying, your aircraft is your mistress, she simply will not be denied your full and undivided attention. So this early in the game, you nor I know anything of substance regarding the circumstances surrounding the accident aircraft or pilot????? So lets wait and see before we get expert-itus! BRAT
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