You are reasoning with a troll. Not worth the time, IMHO. Like I said whenever there is a new project in china out in the open, trolls come out from the hideouts to make nuisance. Just don't play with them, it only gets worse.
Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
- Thread starter RedSky
- Start date
- Status
You are reasoning with a troll. Not worth the time, IMHO. Like I said whenever there is a new project in china out in the open, trolls come out from the hideouts to make nuisance. Just don't play with them, it only gets worse.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Some people will say they are not trolls, poison pills, spoilers, or party poopers. What’s their purpose then? Concerned the Chinese might look foolish being wrong in the end? What’s it to you? Hard to believe people who are critical of anyone who aren’t critical of China is concerned they might end up looking foolish? Hard to believe people that look at others as inherently inferior to them would ever pass up the opportunity to throw it in their faces. Hard to believe these people are looking out for what’s best for the Chinese.
There was a thread in here a while ago about a retired US General who wrote a book about the warrior’s ethos. He talked about how a warrior relishes facing adversity and that’s what distinguishes a warrior from anyone else. Why then the alarmed over an automatically inferior Chinese stealth fighter? Why the alarm over a rust bucket obsolete former Russian aircraft carrier filled with inferior Chinese technology? Why the alarm over a Chinese space program doing things now that they’ve already done over 40 years ago? China can’t get passed making a reliable sufficient domestic engine. So don’t bother with producing a stealth fighter. It’ll take China decades to master building and operating aircraft carriers so why bother. China is only accomplishing in space now what they’ve done decades ago. It’s nothing new so don’t bother. If they were warriors, wouldn’t they want to go up against a good challenge? Why would they care especially when everything China does will never surpass let alone match their prowess? I thought a warrior relished adversity so what’s the problem? First you have to understand the meaning. Facing an obstacle bigger than yourself and overcoming it regardless of fear is what the warrior’s spirit is all about. But the thing is it is not inferior stealth fighters or obsolete aircraft carriers that frighten them the most.
Let’s say that Chinese stealth fighters and aircraft carriers or anything else will never match theirs. They certainly believe it. But what alarms them is despite it the Chinese continue to march against what they see as futile. Overcoming great adversity against all odds is what the warrior’s spirit is all about. Going up against what they say can’t be done or trying to convince your opponent not to bother because you will never beat their superiority… which one do you think is more the warrior?
My warrior is bigger than your warrior.
There was a thread in here a while ago about a retired US General who wrote a book about the warrior’s ethos. He talked about how a warrior relishes facing adversity and that’s what distinguishes a warrior from anyone else. Why then the alarmed over an automatically inferior Chinese stealth fighter? Why the alarm over a rust bucket obsolete former Russian aircraft carrier filled with inferior Chinese technology? Why the alarm over a Chinese space program doing things now that they’ve already done over 40 years ago? China can’t get passed making a reliable sufficient domestic engine. So don’t bother with producing a stealth fighter. It’ll take China decades to master building and operating aircraft carriers so why bother. China is only accomplishing in space now what they’ve done decades ago. It’s nothing new so don’t bother. If they were warriors, wouldn’t they want to go up against a good challenge? Why would they care especially when everything China does will never surpass let alone match their prowess? I thought a warrior relished adversity so what’s the problem? First you have to understand the meaning. Facing an obstacle bigger than yourself and overcoming it regardless of fear is what the warrior’s spirit is all about. But the thing is it is not inferior stealth fighters or obsolete aircraft carriers that frighten them the most.
Let’s say that Chinese stealth fighters and aircraft carriers or anything else will never match theirs. They certainly believe it. But what alarms them is despite it the Chinese continue to march against what they see as futile. Overcoming great adversity against all odds is what the warrior’s spirit is all about. Going up against what they say can’t be done or trying to convince your opponent not to bother because you will never beat their superiority… which one do you think is more the warrior?
My warrior is bigger than your warrior.
Last edited:
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Good retort. Exactly that what scared them. Against all the odds (embargo, containment), China continue their march to technological independent and getting stronger by the day
Last edited:
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
In other words, what have been designed by Soviet Union is a product of all the Republics. Thus, Russia does not have the capabilities to develop Soviet's aircraft and engines outside of the Soviet Union, which proves my point.
It does not matter. Today, Russia does not have the ability to design an equivalent of An-125 or An-225. In other words, possessing something and capable of designing that same thing are two completely different concepts. I rest my case.
Whether or not the PAKFA is a new design does not alter the fact that the configuration is based on the configuration of Su-27, the latter being the work of the Soviet Union. We can see this because of the common features found on both Su-27 and PAKFA.
This is entirely irrelevant, as it doesn't reflect Russian's ability to design the same Soviet products. Possession of intellectual properties does not equate to capability of creating similar intellectual properties.
The 117 uses technologies from AL-31 and AL-41, both of the latter engines are product of the Soviet Union. In other words, Soviet Union did much of the work, whereas Russia integrated the two together. This is a completely different concept from creating an entirely new fighter aircraft engine as the American has done with the F119 or as the Chinese are doing with the WS-15.
The PAKFA uses external engine nacelles, straight air intakes, and variable-geometry inlets. These are the same features found on the Su-27. On top of that, the PAKFA also have stabilators extending pass the engine nozzles like the Su-27 does, while the sting extends further than the stabilators. These suggest the designers started with what they know -- the Su-27, a 4-th generation fighter which is a Soviet design, rather than starting from a brand new configuration liked the F-22.
Furthermore, while the PAKFA incoporates some stealth design, it is not a true 5-th generation fighter. The reason is the engine fan is completely exposed, resulting in strong radar reflection. Thus, the aircraft is not stealthy. The panel joints are not serrated, unlike F-22, F-35 or J-20.
As for the 117, the engine is based on technologies from AL-31 and AL-41 that are Soviet technologies. While it is true that Russia did a lot of work in integrating the best of the two engines, it is also true that much of the work was already done by the Soviet Union and that Russia did not design the 117 from a blank sheet of paper. Thus, what the Russia did with the 117 cannot be compared to what the Americans did with the F-119, nor be compared to what the Chinese are doing with the WS-15.
Victor Chepkin is Russian, Saturn is Russian and he was the head designer of 117S, 117 Al-41F.
Al-41F is a 18000kg Saturn has built 28 of these engines and 17 are still in Saturn`s power and still mantained in Saturn`s facilities.
На самом-то деле двигатель пятого поколения у нас есть. Он называется "АЛ 41Ф". Разработка двигателя "АЛ-41Ф" для 30-тонного истребителя "1.44" ОКБ "Микояна" была начата в 1982 году. Двигатель разработан, прошел испытания, мы изготовили их в количестве 28 штук. Часть из них уже по разным причинам списана, но штук 15-17 лежит у нас на складе.
Since you have no access to T-50 RCS what you claim about T-50 is just a forum myth since modern engines also use composites and you have no access to Sukhoi`s intake design.
Last edited:
That is absolutely true, NikeX. But consider this: While all developed countries have been working diligently, how come China is the one that has moved up from I-don't-remember-where to the second place economically?
I'm not even trying to say that China will remain so (keep catching up), but the fact is: Nothing remains the same, including the pecking order of the world. China having been the top dog in history could then be beaten even by the apparent midgets such as Japan, why does it take so much convincing to convince you that China could also overtake the USA, let alone the old Europe?
As I said more than once on this forum, I firmly believe, and this belief of mine has been supported by human history so far, that all empires, including your beloved USA (by the way, I love it as well) will fall sooner or later. China has held that position many a time in history and had held it far longer than how old the USA is. Yet nobody can say for sure how many more years or decades the USA is going to hold its current position.
Not that I wish to see the US go down any time soon... I probably see more trouble within China at this moment... It's just how this universe operates: Nothing ever stays for too long.
The other thing is that most countries only ever get one chance at the top and that's it, it is almost unheard of to have second chances let alone multiple ones, which makes China really exceptional here.
Engineer
Major
That is . A Russian participated in a Soviet project does not mean the entire project is credited to Russia.
Both AL-31 and AL-41 were designed by Soviet Union, with contributions made by various republics, using the resources of Soviet Union. If AL-31 and AL-41 do not exist, there would be no 117 engine. Simply put, Russia integrated the technologies from the two engines, but the true credit belongs to Soviet Union for creating the two engines in the first place.
That is irrelevant. AL-41 was designed when Saturn was still belonged to the Soviet Union, hence a product of Soviet Union.
It is common knowledge that engine fan contributes enormously to RCS. The PAKFA has exposed engine fans and is therefore not stealthy. From :
Engineer
Major
You raised a good question. When we measure China's progress, we are measuring it with respect to the leading edge of the world. Whether the leaders are moving forward diligently is irrelevant, because we constantly shift out reference frame as those leaders are making progress. If those leaders are progressing at a faster pace than China, we would have used the term "stagnation" instead of "progress" to describe China's technologies.
coolieno99
Junior Member
the PAK FA engine fan blades are most likely made of non-reflective composite materials. The Russians were aware that S-ducts configuration would reduced RCS. They have been implemented on the Su-47. But apparently they believed that non-reflective fan blades is the way to go.
- Status