Seccond joint russo-sino warcames!!

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wmdco

New Member
Of course china has no ambitions to Russia's land. In the history, it was Russian who occupied huge land from china. After the Soviet Union, Lenin agreed to return all the land occupied by Russian to China. but Starlin refused to do that after Lenin died.
China needs russian for its weapons. russian is china's only weapon supplier currently. russina needs china's money. china is willing to keep good relationship with russian because china needs a stable environment for its economy. but if china has other options for its weapon import, china will not hesitate to switch. china has a lot of bad experience with russian even in 50's and 60' when china and russian were in "honey moon". In 50's, russian charged china a lot for the weapon it gave to china when china took russian's responsibility to fight USA in korea. russian insisted cutting Mongolia out of china when china was its 100% ally. russian never treat other equally. but now russian is poor, it needs money from its booming neighbor to feed its people.
china and russian are just using to each other. No forever friend, only forever interest.
 
T

Tassadar

New Member
Registered Member
There are not such things as "friends" in relation between nation and nation. Even closest ally should assess each other's straetgic interests before making decisions involving each other. As for the nationalism of Russian people, I would not worry about that much. Putin seems to be a very pragmatic leader and china and russia will share similar interests for the forseeable future. (I don't think US will step down from the sole superpower quite easily.)

Also, the way I see china's diplomacy is that we are trying to keep at least superficial good relation with all countries that are not enemy when we are trying the peaceful rise scenario. So, even there are some conflicting interests, as long as it's not core interest like Taiwan problem(well, that's the only example I could think of, no offence.), there will be no serious confrontation between the two.
 
duskylim

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Dear Sirs:

Few relationships (except perhaps my own with my girlfriends!) are as complicated as those between great continental powers like Russia and China. There are so many conflicting interests. There are so many risks. Clearly a lot is at stake.

I believe the best way to characterize the present Sino-Russian relationship is that of a cautious allegiance. It is similar to the previous relationship during WWII between erstwhile rivals: The Western European allies (Britain and France) and the former Soviet Union. They were not natural allies, not sharing common ideologies, nor political systems, nor strategic interests.

But the crucial factor was that they shared a common enemies (Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan) and common fears. They also recognized that the way weaker powers deal with stronger powers is to form alliances against them. They had done so before during WW1 (against Imperial Germany) and did so again in WWII. Hitler himself knew that this allegance was unnatural and hoped that it would dissolve, giving him respite. But because he was percieved as a greater threat the alliance held until he was defeated.

Russia and China find themselves in a similar situation and thus have decided to use a similar solution. Despite their many differences, they have joined together because they percieve that there is a greater, more immediate threat to themselves than their own mutual rivalry. If that threat should disappear, the main reason to make their alliance a military one (rather than say, an economic one) will disappear also. It will also bring their own rivalry more into focus.

And yet it is still not as a strong an alliegance as that of the Allies and the Soviet Union during WWII. That is probably because the percieved threat (do I really have to identify it?) is still not that immediate and thus is manageable.

Also large countries like them have many resources and many options. Both of them also know time is on their side. China has the fastest growing large economy on earth. Russia is beginning to recover from a period of weakness and still has some of her old strength.

Given enough time, both will grow stronger relative to their rivals. The other "mature" power can only grow relatively weaker with time. Therein lies the danger: that the threatened power forsees its inevitable decline and decides to act now before it is too late. That act of recklessness will produce a war that will dwarf anything we have read about or seen.

We live in interesting times.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim
 
F

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
duskylim said:
Dear Sirs:

Few relationships (except perhaps my own with my girlfriends!) are as complicated as those between great continental powers like Russia and China. There are so many conflicting interests. There are so many risks. Clearly a lot is at stake.

I believe the best way to characterize the present Sino-Russian relationship is that of a cautious allegiance. It is similar to the previous relationship during WWII between erstwhile rivals: The Western European allies (Britain and France) and the former Soviet Union. They were not natural allies, not sharing common ideologies, nor political systems, nor strategic interests.

But the crucial factor was that they shared a common enemies (Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan) and common fears. They also recognized that the way weaker powers deal with stronger powers is to form alliances against them. They had done so before during WW1 (against Imperial Germany) and did so again in WWII. Hitler himself knew that this allegance was unnatural and hoped that it would dissolve, giving him respite. But because he was percieved as a greater threat the alliance held until he was defeated.

Russia and China find themselves in a similar situation and thus have decided to use a similar solution. Despite their many differences, they have joined together because they percieve that there is a greater, more immediate threat to themselves than their own mutual rivalry. If that threat should disappear, the main reason to make their alliance a military one (rather than say, an economic one) will disappear also. It will also bring their own rivalry more into focus.

And yet it is still not as a strong an alliegance as that of the Allies and the Soviet Union during WWII. That is probably because the percieved threat (do I really have to identify it?) is still not that immediate and thus is manageable.

Also large countries like them have many resources and many options. Both of them also know time is on their side. China has the fastest growing large economy on earth. Russia is beginning to recover from a period of weakness and still has some of her old strength.

Given enough time, both will grow stronger relative to their rivals. The other "mature" power can only grow relatively weaker with time. Therein lies the danger: that the threatened power forsees its inevitable decline and decides to act now before it is too late. That act of recklessness will produce a war that will dwarf anything we have read about or seen.

We live in interesting times.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim
Click to expand...

Dusky you hit the nail on the head.

I said something similar to this a while ago.

Empires when they are strong are not as dangerous but when they
perceive their power slipping away or their options being curtailed
all hell can break loose
 
Roger604

Roger604

Senior Member
I think China and Russia are natural allies, despite what many people think.

From a strictly pragmatic point of view, they two need each other because Russia lacks a modern, capitalist economy, and will not develop one for the foreseeable future. China lacks resources per capita, and needs to acquire it from abroad.

Russia and China is like Canada and the USA. One is a big economic powerhouse, the other is a natural resource powerhouse.

From a cultural point of view, both Russia and China are authoritarian states. This group is distinguished from the western democracies (based on Enlightenment era ideas) and countries that have no ambition to develop or be wealthy (like African, SE Asian and South American countries).

On the surface, Chinese and Russians are very different. But in terms of the political ideology, they are very similar.


I think for the foreseeable future, China and Russia will remain allies because of (1) external threat, and (2) pragmatic economic concerns.

Perhaps in a few decades, there will be sufficient cultural exchanges that the Russians (and Central Asians) will become sinified as China becomes more wealthy and projects its culture and influence outwards.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Roger604 said:
Perhaps in a few decades, there will be sufficient cultural exchanges that the Russians (and Central Asians) will become sinified as China becomes more wealthy and projects its culture and influence outwards.
Click to expand...

I would have to disagree there in the strongest terms. The Russians are a highly proud people that would never allow themselves to be "Sinified".

Besides they're not that weak. Despite Putin setting back Russia's political reforms, he has overseen some good economic changes. Of course how much that can be attributed to him, I don't know.
 
A

akinkhoo

Junior Member
Russia's problem is the population is becoming smaller and smaller. the morality rate is high for a world power, and more and more chinese are living in russia, to provide the labour needed...

russia's problem isn't economy which can only go up with current trend; it is that they will soon have not enough labour to keep the economy going and may become dependence on chinese and other foreign labour employed by russian firms!

anyway, we are going out of topic; what can we expect to see from the next wargame? :D
 
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