SDF Aerospace and Aerodynamics Corner

Engineer

Major
look you are wrong simple like that, this proves throat area changes and flow rates increase
5991d1327152348-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-new.jpg

the rest what you write is a bunch of fallacies you write, basicly you won`t admit it your pride does not let you


cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area

Disagreeing with your claims because they are wrong is not a fallacy. :rolleyes:

Fallacies refers to improper reasoning, such as the one you just made above which is called
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, because you assumed one thing is a result of another due to their simultaneous occurance. Just because I took a dump in the morning and the sun rose, that doesn't mean my action of taking a dump caused the sun to rise.

Cruise airflow is smaller than transonic air flow, which is true. Throat area at cruise condition is smaller than transonic throat area, which is also true. However, all you can do is point out that the two events occur together, but you cannot prove that one is the cause of another -- no where in your citation does it say that variation in throat area causes the mass flow rate to change.

We know change in mass flow rate is independent to throat area As, which is a fact:
qdqLb.png


We also know that at supersonic flight, the reduction in mass flow is achieved by bypass doors, which is point out by your very own citation:
EmxOh.png



IHVho.png


The collapsed position of the ramp is the default position. Once the aircraft goes supersonic, the ramp moves downward to create oblique shocks, hence the creation of a throat which is used to create the normal shock. This is called creating a throat when it is needed, and putting it away when it is not, which is the situation described by your above citation. It is not controlling mass flow rate as you have claimed. :rolleyes:
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Disagreeing with your claims because they are wrong is not a fallacy. :rolleyes:

The collapsed position of the ramp is the default position. Once the aircraft goes supersonic, the ramp moves downward to create oblique shocks, and the resulting throat creates the normal shock. This is called creating a throat when it is needed, and putting it away when it is not, which is what your above citation illustrates. It is not controlling mass flow rate as you have claimed.

to start that is an axisymmetric intake like the SR-71, there is no ramp, just a spike.
cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area

But what can i expect from you just fallacies and false explanations
 
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Engineer

Major
to start that is an axisymmetric intake like the SR-71, there is no ramp, just a spike.

So you are claiming axis-symmetric intake works differently than 2D intakes then, essentially saying that what you have said above has no application to your claim that inlets on F-14, F-15, etc. can control the mass flow with variable geometries. In other words, you are admitting to making
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which is a fallacy.

cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area

Once again, this is
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. Two events occurring at the same time does not mean one is in control of another. The fact is, throat geometry has nothing to do with variation in mass flow ratio, as explained in the diagram below:
qdqLb.png


But what can i expect from you just fallacies and false explanations

Quit
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. Just because you employ fallacies and false explanations, that doesn't mean I do the same things as you do.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
So you are claiming axis-symmetric intake works differently than 2D intakes then, essentially saying that what you have said above has no application to your claim that inlets on F-14, F-15, etc. can control the mass flow with variable geometries. In other words, you are admitting to making
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which is a fallacy.



Once again, this is
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. Two events occurring at the same time does not mean one is in control of another. The fact is, throat geometry has nothing to do with variation in mass flow ratio, as explained in the diagram below:
qdqLb.png




Quit
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. Just because you employ fallacies and false explanations, that doesn't mean I do the same things as you do.

F-14 and F-15 do the same thing SR-71 or MiG-21

you are wrong, and actually S1 or throat area increases mass flow

all the article say that but there i know you will deny it even if the papes claim it, you are wrong, you are not right simple like that.

If i mention the axisymetric is because you can not put excuses the bypass doors, but F-14 does the same, when it increases the throat it increases the mass flow all articles say it, you are the only one denying them.


read it engineer you are wrong, you are saying fallacies to defend your mistakes because of pride you won`t admit i am right, and the last article proves it cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area
 
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Engineer

Major
F-14 and F-15 do the same thing SR-71 or MiG-21

you are wrong, and actually S1 or throat area increases mass flow

S1 being the throat area does not automatically mean variation in throat area causes change in mass flow. Again, from your own citation, mass flow ratio is A0i/A1, which is independent of throat area As:
5935d1325811282-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-spilled-air36.jpg



all the article say that but there i know you will deny it even if the papes claim it, you are wrong, you are not right simple like that.

Go and keep comforting yourself with that, as the person who is in denial is you. Time and again I have shown you that your own citations say bypass system controls mass flow, and time after time I pointed out how your own citation shows change in mass flow ratio is independent of throat area. Each time, when you find your own sources discomforting, you reject them.

Take the following diagram for example, the fact is staring right at your face saying you are wrong. Yet, you keep on ignoring its existence because you are unable to spin a mathematical equation like you can with people's words. That's denial.
qdqLb.png


If i mention the axisymetric is because you can not put excuses the bypass doors, but F-14 does the same, when it increases the throat it increases the mass flow all articles say it, you are the only one denying them.

So you assumed axis-symmetric inlets have no bypass doors unlike 2D inlets. Well, you assumed wrong.

tZRHT.png


As you can see, axis-symmetric intakes also have bypass doors. Control of mass flow has to be achieved with bypass doors. Just because this reduction in throat area and reduction in mass flow rate occurs together in supersonic speed, that doesn't mean one is in control of another.

For 2D inlets, your own source says bypass is used to handle excess flow on the Concorde:
IHVho.png


If the text is too confusing for you to understand, here are some illustrations. Air is bypassed from the throat at the gap:
5mSmr.jpg

P5TXn.jpg

5Iems.jpg

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A similar setup can be seen on the F-14:
gt9YR.gif


Let's face it mig, after over twenty pages of you repeating the same claim without concrete support, it is pretty clear that you are the one who is in denial.

read it engineer you are wrong, you are saying fallacies to defend your mistakes because of pride you won`t admit i am right, and the last article proves it

You are
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. All the citations we have seen in this thread has been saying the same thing that I have been saying, yet none support your claim that variable-geometry controls mass flow rate, including the recent article that you use.

Your last article own shows that a throat is created when it is needed, and the throat is put away when it is not needed. This is not controlling mass flow rate as you have claimed.
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.

The fact is pride prevents you to admit I am right, so you employ fallacy after fallacy to defend your mistakes. It is that simple. Just because you have a certain attributes, thoughts, or emotions, that doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. :rolleyes:



cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area

Again, this is
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.

Cruise airflow is smaller than transonic air flow, which is true. Throat area at cruise condition is smaller than transonic throat area, which is also true. However, all you can do is point out that the two events occur together, but you cannot prove that one is the cause of another. And no where in your citation does it say that variation in throat area causes the mass flow rate to change.

We know change in mass flow rate is independent to throat area As, which is a fact:
qdqLb.png
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
S1 being the throat area does not automatically mean variation in throat area causes change in mass flow. And no where in your citation does it say that variation in throat area causes the mass flow rate to change
this article proves how wrong you are
cause is simple variable geometry intake and the article mentions it
cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area


5991d1327152348-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-new.jpg


The only difference is you won`t admit it, but i do not need you admit it, the books say variable geometry throat do control air mass flow, i know perfectly you are wrong you are pretending to know to those who have not read the articles, but anyone who knows the books and articles well know you are wrong and you are simply wrong because variable geometry intakes throat do control mass flow and shock position and intakes spill.

DSI have limits cons and pros, simple like that, but your vision because is wrong and you know it, tries to argue just for arguing.

J-20, J-10 F-35 get some advantages but are more limited to a narrower speed range, but among the intakes for stealth aircraft definitively the DSI are the most economical, but their mach numbers are similar to F-104 and F-16-79`s intakes.

JF-17 also has cheapen the intake and kept good stealth

T-50 and F-3 use caret intakes like F-22 though

[video=youtube;g94C5CNIPOQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g94C5CNIPOQ[/video][video=youtube;fq8jhl17r3s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq8jhl17r3s&feature=related[/video]
 
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Engineer

Major
this article proves how wrong you are
cause is simple variable geometry intake and the article mentions it

Nope. All your article mentioned are two events, that throat area is smaller at supersonic speed and that mass flow is reduced at supersonic speed. Throat area controlling the mass flow is an assumption that you have made, and no where in your article is your claim verified. And we see that equation has proved you wrong already:
5935d1325811282-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-spilled-air36.jpg


cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area

5991d1327152348-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-new.jpg

That's the same logic as I took a dump in the morning, the sun rose, therefore my dump caused the sun to rise. It's a
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, because all you have been able to do is scream they occur together without showing any link between them.

Is throat area at cruise condition is smaller than transonic throat area? Yes. Is mass flow reduced at cruise condition? Yes. However, the former is caused by the expansion of intake ramps to create oblique and normal shocks, and the latter is achieved with bypass mentioned in your very own citation:
EmxOh.png


So how does variation in throat area controls mass flow? It doesn't, and ignoring bypass isn't going to magically turn the intake ramps into a control for mass flow.

The only difference is you won`t admit it, but i do not need you admit it, the books say variable geometry throat do control air mass flow, i know perfectly you are wrong you are pretending to know to those who have not read the articles, but anyone who knows the books and articles well know you are wrong and you are simply wrong because variable geometry intakes throat do control mass flow and shock position and intakes spill.

What is there to admit? When your claims are incorrect, why do I have to admit they are correct just to make you feel comfortable? Quit being illogical.

Covering your ears and accusing me of being wrong over and over again isn't going to turn your wish into a fact. The difference between you and I is that I am able to use your own citations to show what I have been saying is correct, whereas you use fallacies such as
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and
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to create an illusion that you are correct. And when I point out how your own sources say you are incorrect, you denial their existence altogether. You are being angry because unlike others, your fallacies don't work on me. As simple as that. :rolleyes:

As far as variation in inlet geometry is concerned, it is used to position the oblique shocks and normal shock. The ability to control the shock geometry is what gives variable-geometry inlet a higher performance than fixed inlet. The fact that normal shock wave moves as a result of change in throat area shows mass flow rate is constant. When the throat area is too small and the cross sectional area of the resulting normal shock is insufficient for flow, the normal shock moves until its area is large enough for the flow condition. Thus variation in throat area only shifts the position of the normal shock, and does nothing to alter the mass flow. This is illustrated in the following diagrams:
z8mre.png


Without bypass, mass flow can only be reduced when the normal shock is pushed out of the inlet by high pressure. This is what occurs on DSI which is fixed, thus is independent to variation in throat geometry.

Another fact is that signal of a restriction at the throat cannot travel out of the inlet. This is because air backs up at a rate of speed-of-sound, which is slower than the supersonic flow that travels into the inlet's mouth. In kiddies' terms, the air inside the inlet cannot tell the air outside that there is a restriction, thus the outside air goes into the inlet until it is too late. This is another reason why variation in throat area does not alter the mass flow.


DSI have limits cons and pros, simple like that, but your vision because is wrong and you know it, tries to argue just for arguing.

Variable-geometry inlet has limits.

When we look at pressure recovery ratio, we see that DSI on J-10B has higher value than the variable-geometry inlet on F-4D. This comes with reduction of weight and complexity, which enhance performance gain.

For variable-geometry inlet to increase pressure recovery, it must incorporate more ramps which increases complexity and weight. This weight increase cancels out some of the gain by the addition of more ramps. This is penalty, and is a limit of variable-geometry inlet. There is nothing incorrect about it.

But from the pressure recovery ratio between J-10B's DSI and F-4D's variable-geometry inlet, we already see your claim that variable-geometry inlet is always better is incorrect.

J-20, J-10 F-35 get some advantages but are more limited to a narrower speed range, but among the intakes for stealth aircraft definitively the DSI are the most economical, but their mach numbers are similar to F-104 and F-16-79`s intakes.

JF-17 also has cheapen the intake and kept good stealth

T-50 and F-3 use caret intakes like F-22 though

[video=youtube;g94C5CNIPOQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g94C5CNIPOQ[/video][video=youtube;fq8jhl17r3s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq8jhl17r3s&feature=related[/video]

The top speed of F-4 is Mach 2.2 and the aircraft uses variable-geometry inlets. The DSI on J-10B has better pressure recovery ratio, and with higher performance there is no reason why the inlet isn't able to function at the same speed. The Mach 2.0 speed limit which you imposed is solely your own invention.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Nope. All your article mentioned are two events, that throat area is smaller at supersonic speed and that mass flow is reduced at supersonic speed. Throat area controlling the mass flow is an assumption that you have made, and no where in your article is your claim verified. And we see that equation has proved you wrong already:
5935d1325811282-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-spilled-air36.jpg




That's the same logic as I took a dump in the morning, the sun rose, therefore my dump caused the sun to rise. It's a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, because all you have been able to do is scream they occur together without showing any link between them.

Is throat area at cruise condition is smaller than transonic throat area? Yes. Is mass flow reduced at cruise condition? Yes. However, the former is caused by the expansion of intake ramps to create oblique and normal shocks, and the latter is achieved with bypass mentioned in your very own citation:
EmxOh.png


So how does variation in throat area controls mass flow? It doesn't, and ignoring bypass isn't going to magically turn the intake ramps into a control for mass flow.



What is there to admit? When your claims are incorrect, why do I have to admit they are correct just to make you feel comfortable? Quit being illogical.

Covering your ears and accusing me of being wrong over and over again isn't going to turn your wish into a fact. The difference between you and I is that I am able to use your own citations to show what I have been saying is correct, whereas you use fallacies such as
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and
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to create an illusion that you are correct. And when I point out how your own sources say you are incorrect, you denial their existence altogether. You are being angry because unlike others, your fallacies don't work on me. As simple as that. :rolleyes:

As far as variation in inlet geometry is concerned, it is used to position the oblique shocks and normal shock. The ability to control the shock geometry is what gives variable-geometry inlet a higher performance than fixed inlet. The fact that normal shock wave moves as a result of change in throat area shows mass flow rate is constant. When the throat area is too small and the cross sectional area of the resulting normal shock is insufficient for flow, the normal shock moves until its area is large enough for the flow condition. Thus variation in throat area only shifts the position of the normal shock, and does nothing to alter the mass flow. This is illustrated in the following diagrams:
z8mre.png


Without bypass, mass flow can only be reduced when the normal shock is pushed out of the inlet by high pressure. This is what occurs on DSI which is fixed, thus is independent to variation in throat geometry.

Another fact is that signal of a restriction at the throat cannot travel out of the inlet. This is because air backs up at a rate of speed-of-sound, which is slower than the supersonic flow that travels into the inlet's mouth. In kiddies' terms, the air inside the inlet cannot tell the air outside that there is a restriction, thus the outside air goes into the inlet until it is too late. This is another reason why variation in throat area does not alter the mass flow.




Variable-geometry inlet has limits.

When we look at pressure recovery ratio, we see that DSI on J-10B has higher value than the variable-geometry inlet on F-4D. This comes with reduction of weight and complexity, which enhance performance gain.

For variable-geometry inlet to increase pressure recovery, it must incorporate more ramps which increases complexity and weight. This weight increase cancels out some of the gain by the addition of more ramps. This is penalty, and is a limit of variable-geometry inlet. There is nothing incorrect about it.

But from the pressure recovery ratio between J-10B's DSI and F-4D's variable-geometry inlet, we already see your claim that variable-geometry inlet is always better is incorrect.



The top speed of F-4 is Mach 2.2 and the aircraft uses variable-geometry inlets. The DSI on J-10B has better pressure recovery ratio, and with higher performance there is no reason why the inlet isn't able to function at the same speed. The Mach 2.0 speed limit which you imposed is solely your own invention.

look to start you do not know nothing, in kiddies terms intakes have sensors that tell the computers or even navigator as in the case of XB-70 the intake state and second spillages do take mass flow out of the intake, the article i gave you said clearly throat variation controls the shock position.


this article proves how wrong you are
cause is simple variable geometry intake and the article mentions it
cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area





The rest is you are just sttuborn and proud just to pretend you are right, but of course i can see you prefer lie to your self and try to mislead others into your own fallacies, but in my case you won`t mislead me i have the article that provews you are totally absolutely aand utterly wrong


and this is

the rest you are mixing articles to try to look smart but this article proves how wrong you are
5991d1327152348-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-new.jpg
 
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Engineer

Major
look to start you do not know nothing, in kiddies terms intakes have sensors that tell the computers or even navigator as in the case of XB-70 the intake state and second spillages do take mass flow out of the intake...

Spillage does not take air out of the intake; spillage is air that never enters the intake. Spillage occurs because normal shock is pushed out of the inlet by pressure, as does in the case of DSI. This phenomenon is independent of variation of throat geometry. In kiddies' term, the change in mass flow rate as a result of spillage has nothing to do with variation of throat geometry. :rolleyes:

the article i gave you said clearly throat variation controls the shock position.

No one claims variation in throat geometry does not change the position of normal shock, but changing the position of normal shock does not equate to control of mass flow.

The area of the normal shock determines the mass flow. When its area is insufficient for a given flow condition, the shock moves the a bigger region of the inlet to accommodate the flow, your so call supercritical condition. Since the normal shock can shift and cannot be fixed right at the throat, variation of the throat size does nothing to control the mass flow.

Your article does not say variable throat area controls the mass flow. All it states are the following:
  • Throat area is smaller at cruise speed than at subsonic speed;
  • Mass flow rate is smaller at cruise than at subsonic speed
You take the assumption that one is the cause of another, which is a fallacy of
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.

this article proves how wrong you are
cause is simple variable geometry intake and the article mentions it
cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area



Nope, the article does not prove what you claimed it proves. The article points out cruise air flow is less than transonic air flow, which is true. The article also points out that throat area is smaller at supersonic speed than transonic speed, which is also true. However, that's the extent that the article says, and the rest is your own assumption. The reduction in mass flow mentioned is achieved via bypass. Air is bleed from the gap between the intake ramp and the diffuser ramp:
EmxOh.png


Air is also bleed from bypass doors:
IHVho.png


Thus, we have an explanation for the reduction in mass flow at supersonic speed. Just because intake ramp expands and mass flow is reduced together at supersonic speed, that doesn't mean one is the cause of another.
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.

The rest is you are just sttuborn and proud just to pretend you are right, but of course i can see you prefer lie to your self and try to mislead others into your own fallacies, but in my case you won`t mislead me i have the article that provews you are totally absolutely aand utterly wrong


and this is

the rest you are mixing articles to try to look smart but this article proves how wrong you are
5991d1327152348-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-new.jpg

No, the following diagram proves you are wrong already. It specifically states mass flow ratio changes is dependent on shock geometry, and even gave an equation showing the ratio is independent of throat area As. Of course you will deny its existence, because you cannot put spin on equations as you can with words.
qdqLb.png


We both know you are being stubborn and proud, and that you are relying on fallacies such as
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in an attempt to mislead others. Now you are just being angry, because you realize your fallacies don't work on me. But
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of your own attributes, thoughts, and emotions on to me isn't going to make you any less wrong. :rolleyes:
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Spillage does not take air out of the intake; spillage is air that never enters the intake. Spillage occurs because normal shock is pushed out of the inlet by pressure, as does in the case of DSI. This phenomenon is independent of variation of throat geometry. In kiddies' term, the change in mass flow rate as a result of spillage has nothing to do with variation of throat geometry. :rolleyes:



No one claims variation in throat geometry does not change the position of normal shock, but changing the position of normal shock does not equate to control of mass flow.

The area of the normal shock determines the mass flow. When its area is insufficient for a given flow condition, the shock moves the a bigger region of the inlet to accommodate the flow, your so call supercritical condition. Since the normal shock can shift and cannot be fixed right at the throat, variation of the throat size does nothing to control the mass flow.

Your article does not say variable throat area controls the mass flow. All it states are the following:
  • Throat area is smaller at cruise speed than at subsonic speed;
  • Mass flow rate is smaller at cruise than at subsonic speed
You take the assumption that one is the cause of another, which is a fallacy of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.



Nope, the article does not prove what you claimed it proves. The article points out cruise air flow is less than transonic air flow, which is true. The article also points out that throat area is smaller at supersonic speed than transonic speed, which is also true. However, that's the extent that the article says, and the rest is your own assumption. The reduction in mass flow mentioned is achieved via bypass. Air is bleed from the gap between the intake ramp and the diffuser ramp:
EmxOh.png


Air is also bleed from bypass doors:
IHVho.png


Thus, we have an explanation for the reduction in mass flow at supersonic speed. Just because intake ramp expands and mass flow is reduced together at supersonic speed, that doesn't mean one is the cause of another.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.



No, the following diagram proves you are wrong already. It specifically states mass flow ratio changes is dependent on shock geometry, and even gave an equation showing the ratio is independent of throat area As. Of course you will deny its existence, because you cannot put spin on equations as you can with words.
qdqLb.png


We both know you are being stubborn and proud, and that you are relying on fallacies such as
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in an attempt to mislead others. Now you are just being angry, because you realize your fallacies don't work on me. But
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of your own attributes, thoughts, and emotions on to me isn't going to make you any less wrong. :rolleyes:

All what you write is not true, but you know i just answered to you not because i know you will admit what the article says which stablishes clearly variable throat S1 and S1" have different mass flows, that is clear why


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area



why?

this article proves how wrong you are
cause is simple variable geometry intake and the article mentions it
cruise airflow < transonic air flow


cruise air flow is 70% of transonic flow

Transonic flow is 100%.


throat area at cruise conditions<transonic throat area


You are wrong and i know you won`t admit it, pride is what really makes you tick, but definitively i know i won`t have a conversation with you. it is senseless, however i left to others the articles, they will decide, but at the end this is not a popularity contest, real jets have variable geometry intakes to control air mass and shock position, you think that just by denying anything i post you win or you outsmart me by saying your fallacies, but you won`t change reality.




this article summariezes everything

With a top speed of Mach 1.6, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has an inlet design that is far simpler than that of the Mach 3-plus SR-71; the single-engine JSF inlet cannot vary its geometry. The F-35’s engineers could get away with a less complicated design because at vehicle speeds up to about Mach 2, the shape of the inlet itself can slow down much of the supersonic air before it enters the inlet. The JSF inlet is, however, a breakthrough design: It has no diverters. Traditional fighter inlets, such as those found on the F/A-18 and F-22, have slots, slats, and moving parts to divert or channel airflow. The F-15 inlet has ramps and doors that alter its external and internal shape to adjust airflow as needed
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The rest is just you pretending to know, i do not need you agree with me, real aircraft use variable geometry for a reason


The chinese use DSI for the same reasons the americans do, more economical fixed intakes with good stealth and price
 
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