Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[gelgoog]

From what I understand the documentation and doctrine was developed with the prototypes.
I would also expect them to use the single fighter for training rather than weapons research. But it might make sense. One single airplane isn't going to train that many pilots. Plus it is a single seater. You are probably better off with simulator training until they have more units. At least enough to make a squadron. In the meantime they need something to test weapons integration. I would expect them to use the prototypes for this. But perhaps for whatever reason they need a platform for final verification with the production hardware and this is it.
TASS is usually reliable. It is an official Russian government press agency. So this is not like a poorly researched article. They have direct access to Russian government staff. Sometimes they do emit timetables which aren't realistic, but that's still the official stance at the time of the press release, plus we know how any advanced technology project is. Timetables are quite hard to predict. It's like that talk in software development. Time, resources, features, pick any two.

 

[Deino]

Yeah I remember I received some beef from the other moderator and admin on the Hermes and the internal hypersonic missile claim and I doubt that mentioning the Klevok-D2 over there would make my situation any better. AFAIK Borisov back in 2018 has stated their will be 6 newer missiles received for the Su-57 in 2020, than we receive a news report from 10 days ago that these missiles will be ready in 2021, along with the claim that they are made from scratch which suggests they are fundamentally new design. I take it that the K-77M and K-77ME are at least 2 of the 6 new missiles.

I will just stop posting reports of Su-57 hypersonic air to ground missiles here. But if they do physically show the missile or give it a name for the Su-57 would you allow me to post it here? the MAKS 2021 is without a doubt going to possibly be a great airshow which might dive into details about the 2nd variant Su-57 regarding new avionics, engines and of course weapons than some news about the PAK-DA.

Sorry if I sounded rude but my point is we were hearing so much fancy stuff from the Russian side since years and most of it in the end reveals itself as propaganda. As such I became more than critical against any Russian claims ...

So please go ahead and I surely don't forbid you to post such news especially when from official sources, but I beg you to be careful not to take everything they tell for granted.

Best and happy seasons greetings

 

[Gloire_bb]

First, there is so far not such a weapon available and if, you won't test it immediately from the Su-57 but from a Flanker or whatever and even then the first aim is to bring this type as a fighter combat-ready and not as a striker.

Don't forget flight testing program is unavoidably significantly affected by crash&fire.
Other deadlines(weapons and such) don't automatically get affected.

For example, as far as I can tell, 1st stage Su-57 never was planned to be as "intermediate" as it ended up actually being, with just 4 years and 1 regiment of actual production run.

Sure, 2nd stage can get its own delays, but that's where we stand right now.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Don't forget flight testing program is unavoidably significantly affected by crash&fire.
Other deadlines(weapons and such) don't automatically get affected.

For example, as far as I can tell, 1st stage Su-57 never was planned to be as "intermediate" as it ended up actually being, with just 4 years and 1 regiment of actual production run.

Sure, 2nd stage can get its own delays, but that's where we stand right now.

It is more about the propaganda and the glasses that the media put onto everyone.

What could be read about the USA military failures, late deliveries, pure waste of money and so on ?
How the newspapers formulate the worlds, how forming the view ?

And on the same account, how they forming the view about the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Germans and so on ?


It is pure and classic war/political propaganda, the target is not that to understand the real capabilities, but to support the official narrative.

It is the same logic used be the Germans when they forbid the usage of maps in news that put a size relationship between the CCCP and Germany.

This forum should be more professional.
The target would be not to simply accept on face value the news based on the reader political direction, and refuse the ones that coming from the wrong country/source , but check what grains of truth should be there regardless of the source and our political view.


How the capability of the Russian/USA submarines relating to each other ?

If you ask the newspapers then they give one answer, if you check the available OSIN data that create a different picture. Which one is true, the propaganda, or the OSIN? Which one could be debated here ?

 

[gelgoog]

Don't forget flight testing program is unavoidably significantly affected by crash&fire.
Other deadlines(weapons and such) don't automatically get affected.

For example, as far as I can tell, 1st stage Su-57 never was planned to be as "intermediate" as it ended up actually being, with just 4 years and 1 regiment of actual production run.

Sure, 2nd stage can get its own delays, but that's where we stand right now.

Well, the thing is I think the Russians were contingency planning in case 5th gen became relevant. But given their current mission profiles and current client base the interest for stealth is a lot more limited than originally expected. Instead you saw production of modernized Flankers. Plus the F-22 was never built in the originally planned numbers nor was it ever exported. The Su-57 is a relatively complex aircraft in terms of flight control compared with most Western fighters. The 2nd stage airplane is supposed to use electric instead of hydraulic actuators for example. This should reduce manufacturing costs and put the airframe weight down significantly. The newer engines will increase kinematic performance and improve range. I see it kind of like other crash programs to develop weapons after long periods of inactivity. Take the T-34 tanks as one example. It was designed as a stopgap to be replaced with the torsion-bar T-34M in 1941. But what happens in 1941? Barbarossa happened. So the T-34 with Christie suspension was kept in production and several tanks which were supposed to replace it like T-43, T-44, never entered production in massive numbers and only the T-54 did replace it. Russia right now has the time to get it right. They need a 5+ or 6th gen like aircraft for it to remain relevant over the next two decades.

 

[panzerfeist1]

I only follow news updates to see how consistent some information is on what the aircraft will have or not have. I am sure a lot of aviation fans have sometimes learned it the hard way like some believing a certain operational date of the Su-57 or how the F-35 would be the 1st to use DIRCM and neither of those have aged well. I also do admit I have a bias because I always overhype the aircraft multiple times.

1. Such as December 2018 internal hypersonic missile claim from tass, February 2020 claim that ammunition was created, found a 2018 source regarding a statement from Borisov that 6 new missiles will be given to the Su-57 in 2020(guess which one I assumed), tass source stating missiles will be made from scratch(guess which missile design I think was made from scratch that they were referring to) and that they will be ready by 2021, than of course on Christmas we get that latest news update again. Some missile projects like the Hermes were introduced earlier in the past but came out late in service so not having my hopes up till that is set in stone.

2. Seen Rostec 2014 introduced from Jo Asakura back at key aero, noticed that 3 of the 4 GaN MMICs(using UHF) are to be for the 3 airborne EW systems. Took KRETs 2015 pdf article that GaN MMIC is present in their EW system. Noticed that the Himalayas was mounted in late 2014, Khibiny-M L-265 mounted in 2016 in Syria for Su-35 and Tarantula mounted in May 2018. But of course it is not official just because those modules were introduced to be put in immediately later with no confirmation later.

3. Realized that in 2022-2024 there will be testing and that along those tests the Su-57 will receive new avionics. Realized the F-22 and F-35s had their radars upgraded later I assumed that the same should be for the Su-57 since it kept theirs since 2009. Pushing my hopes more for ROFAR instead of better AESA upgrade.

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"
"Pica-M" is part of the brKR-3 on-board complex, which provides radar reconnaissance in all weather conditions and at any time of the day. The station has a mapping capacity of up to 1-1.5 m and an object detection range of up to 300 km. The radar successfully completed the state test program in 2016. At the same time, the "Research Kulon" on the order of the Ministry of Industry and Trade is developing the technology to create a fifth-generation side-view radar with an active phased antenna grille (AFAR)." For example if the avionics upgrade refers to the radar upgrades of the Su-57 than Kulon has a better chance of mounting new side arrays for the Su-57 in 2022 to begin two years of testing(took 2 years each for F-22 to test 3rd and 4th gen radars) to the end of 2024. This would immediately dismiss that the aircraft will not have ROFAR but talks of putting ROFAR on the Su-57 date back to 2014, realized that instead of RTI and KRET that a 3rd company VEGA is involved in photonic radars,

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No. 1 (20) of 2018 RTI stated photonic integrated circuit production 3-5 years planned(not everything goes to plans) would mean that the production would begin 2021-2023. I also do not know if the new Su-57 in 2022-2024 would be just a single tested aircraft or involving multiple aircrafts and I do not know how many prototypes or which company would be involved or if their will be more companies with photonic radar prototypes than just KRET, RTI and VEGA. So if production begins in 2021, 2022, or 2023 will they have enough photonic integrated circuits to be mass produced into the new Su-57s? Also I do not doubt such claims because RTI is planning to have a 300ghz radar or above being created in 5 years to track very small drones and they have shown a video demonstration of a 10 meter corridor for airports using such high frequency radars to immediately identify what objects people are carrying walking through that corridor which is planned for 2021.

Its not that I love to j#$# off too much to the aircraft but it is hard for me to differentiate between what is important and what is not important for the options the aircraft will have later but I promise I don't go 110% into immediately believing that my opinions will be facts, I have done that in the past with those 3 points above and caused major headaches in forums because of that. If there is something physically new shown or received to the aircraft or given a name is when I will make those updates here with more belief that they are real. I will also avoid bringing up any of those 3 points above only if there is good proof of it and best to avoid them on non-russian forums because of how those have escalated.

 

[gelgoog]

I assume a lot of those features are tentative and might or might not be in the actual 2nd stage aircraft. I think only the engines are definitively part of the upgrade. If you look at the production schedule for the Su-57 they are supposed to ramp production to like 10-12 aircraft per year in 2022. That year they are supposed to start production of the 2nd stage aircraft. I think that is highly optimistic but it is the plan they have. Like 1 aircraft this year, 3-4 next year until they have a squadron, then switch production to 2nd stage aircraft, with 10-12 aircraft every year, like 3-4 squadrons a year, until order is done. I think I've seen the exact numbers somewhere but I'm just giving these numbers of the top of my head.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

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Every party playing games regarding of released information, on each level.

Means it is very hard to assess real capabilities from official statements, considering they don't simply hiding information, but purposefully making false statements to force the other side to spend money for made up stuff.

 

[Gloire_bb]

That year they are supposed to start production of the 2nd stage aircraft.

2024(as scheduled). 2022 is the projected year of its first flight of stage 2 aircraft.

As far as we can tell, second stage features are coming along nicely(better than anticipated), but delays happen.
So, in the best-case scenario, there will be a single regiment of stage 1 aircraft(and 2 - of 2nd stage) under the current contract. If not - the switch will simply happen later.

This parallel development may help to alleviate delays with the aircraft itself (as I noted earlier - it was probably never planned for stage 1 to be as temporary as it may end up being), but making wild guesses is not too rewarding, we aren't talking about crazy 3d printer of PLAN shipbuilding here.

 

[anzha]

The Russians claim they have 5 SE Asian countries looking into the Su-57. Note: countries not named.

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