Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[ougoah]

I remember back to some time ago when we were argueing if China would induct Su-35. No body agreed that except one banned idiot. Since China bought the Su-35 out of our surprise, it won't be surprise anymore if China eventually add Su-57 to its fleet.

Even the US would buy the Su-57 if it was offered. That explains everything that needs explaining on the Su-35 and Su-57 purchase topic.

For China, they'd still buy su-57 even if PLAAF is testing 6th gen fighters, assuming the price is right.

The US would love to buy some Su-35s today if the Russians would sell to them. This doesn't mean the Su-35 is superior to the F-22 and F-35 like Indian logic would suggest.

 

[Xizor]

@Xsizor

Do you think the SU-57 is a worthwhile addition to China's fleet?

YES !

But if China has money to spend and is looking at gaining a new capability. I like the weapons bay of the Su-57 - its long, along the centreline and if the weapons bay is modified and linked up ( removing the partition), it can hold two good Extreme Long Range AShCM / Nuclear Cruise Missile or an ASAT missile ( like ASM-135 ). These weapons could be concealed in the weapons bay of the Modified Su-57 ensuring its survivability.

It's a very attractive airframe in that regard. Imagine a China modified version of Su-57 with linked-up long weapons bay, J20 like surface finish, J-20 Avionics, EO, AESA tech etc.

P.S : I really don't think the H6 series can do its job in the theatre. No way with all the Jamming, Fifth gen, Ship based radar spheres and whatnot.

 

[ougoah]

YES !

But if China has money to spend and is looking at gaining a new capability. I like the weapons bay of the Su-57 - its long, along the centreline and if the weapons bay is modified and linked up ( removing the partition), it can hold two good Extreme Long Range AShCM / Nuclear Cruise Missile or an ASAT missile ( like ASM-135 ). These weapons could be concealed in the weapons bay of the Modified Su-57 ensuring its survivability.

It's a very attractive airframe in that regard. Imagine a China modified version of Su-57 with linked-up long weapons bay, J20 like surface finish, J-20 Avionics, EO, AESA tech etc.

P.S : I really don't think the H6 series can do its job in the theatre. No way with all the Jamming, Fifth gen, Ship based radar spheres and whatnot.

They would have removed the partition if the structure allowed for it. Building a 9G+ capable fighter with internal bays is a remarkable achievement already. What Sukhoi's done, even more so. They still have that fuselage tunnel which supposedly helps with aerodynamics as part of the original concept of creating a perfect lifting design. I think things have moved on but Sukhoi engineers refused to use the structure the F-22 and J-20 went with. If they closed off this tunnel on the Su-57, the bay would be massive but require even more reinforcing.

If China would spend the effort to "Sinocize" the Su-57 with everything available, it would make for a more useful fighter to the PLAAF. I imagine China probably doesn't consider the Su-57 suitable for the PLAAF's needs in terms of stealth and electronics/sensors/software etc. Will cost a fortune and probably half a decade. Then it'll be the Su-27 licensing issue all over again and a logistical nightmare to support two heavy 5th gen PLAAF fighters and a different 5th gen PLAN fighter along with the rest of the PLAAF fleet.

 

[Xizor]

They would have removed the partition if the structure allowed for it. Building a 9G+ capable fighter with internal bays is a remarkable achievement already. What Sukhoi's done, even more so. They still have that fuselage tunnel which supposedly helps with aerodynamics as part of the original concept of creating a perfect lifting design. I think things have moved on but Sukhoi engineers refused to use the structure the F-22 and J-20 went with. If they closed off this tunnel on the Su-57, the bay would be massive but require even more reinforcing.

If China would spend the effort to "Sinocize" the Su-57 with everything available, it would make for a more useful fighter to the PLAAF. I imagine China probably doesn't consider the Su-57 suitable for the PLAAF's needs in terms of stealth and electronics/sensors/software etc. Will cost a fortune and probably half a decade. Then it'll be the Su-27 licensing issue all over again and a logistical nightmare to support two heavy 5th gen PLAAF fighters and a different 5th gen PLAN fighter along with the rest of the PLAAF fleet.

Yes, there is the concern for structural integrity with removing the "partition". I actually didn't think of that tbh. But is it a challenge that cannot be overcome with further modification of the structure as well as operational constraints ? I think the issue finally boils down to whether China finds it financially viable and if Russian engineers at TsAGi finds it acceptable. Good thing India pulled out of it though. Having access to the technology and rights of potent airframe would not be good for China.

 

[ougoah]

Yes, there is the concern for structural integrity with removing the "partition". I actually didn't think of that tbh. But is it a challenge that cannot be overcome with further modification of the structure as well as operational constraints ? I think the issue finally boils down to whether China finds it financially viable and if Russian engineers at TsAGi finds it acceptable. Good thing India pulled out of it though. Having access to the technology and rights of potent airframe would not be good for China.

I suspect they're stretching it as it is and to be honest, I'm thoroughly impressed Sukhoi engineers pulled that setup off because it seems like the bays cut into at least half of that cross section and the Su-57 is supposed to be a superior dogfighter in whatever speed and altitude it chooses. Internal bays will be the main mechanical struggle for every project currently trying to build a 5th gen fighter and I recall reading the Koreans have sort of given up on internal bays for their KFX which is currently being prototyped. At least for the first variants, apparently they will develop an internal bay for proceeding KFX fighters. The Japanese "new spirit" demonstrator didn't bother with bays at all.

Indians long had access to the earlier Su-30 and then the Su-30MKI airframes and technologies but have managed to learn nothing from the experience. They can't even use them well, getting flogged by 1970s Falcons and block I/II JF-17s. I think Russia will eventually sell some Su-57 off the shelf to the Indians if the F-35 ends up being prohibited or too expensive for mass acquisition. They won't be able to develop the AMCA until other airforces have been flying 6th gens for ages, if they do at all. You can already hear the excuses they'll have.

The Tejas is an aerodynamically compromised copy of the Mirage series (the wing fuselage leading edge because they screwed up the design when came to managing the vortices while a canard "fix" is in the works) and so far, the IAF have only 6 combat ready Tejas after more than 10 years of testing, evaluating, and modifying. Over 40 years of Tejas program has resulted in higher unit price than Mig-35 with Zhuk AESA variant and 6 in service. The Kaveri was supposed to be more promising than the WS-10 when the project started before the WS-10 and despite basically copying several engines with the help of three engine superpowers, they've failed while the WS-10 has now had over 10 years of reliable service on J-11s and considered proven enough to be used on the J-10. You can give the Indians everything and hold their hand, they'll still fuck it up and blame it on everything but themselves.

 

[ougoah]

Should also add though that Russia may actually not be so warm towards India now. If India continues moving towards the US, there's a real risk of Su-57 confidential information reaching Americans. The Indians let American naval officers into the Akula class against clear warnings by Russia. Not to mention they severely damaged at least one rented submarine from Russia and are happy to share it all with anyone who pays them some attention and plays on their hubris. Not exactly a reliable partner and not even a trustworthy customer.

 

[anzha]

Even the US would buy the Su-57 if it was offered. That explains everything that needs explaining on the Su-35 and Su-57 purchase topic.

Please, support this statement.

 

[ougoah]

Please, support this statement.

The US has bought Mig-29s and Su-27s secretly in the past and I don't mean training with reunified German airforce WRT Mig-29s. They've also bought Kh-31 missiles too. There is value to buying a small amount for evaluation and training. Why is it assumed that China's purchase of Su-35 means J-20 isn't good enough? It's a common fallacy by Indians and sometimes even Russians. The truth is the Su-35 purchase was a long drawn out purchase and necessitated by J-20's absence in PLAAF (back when the Su-35 purchase was initially considered) while it was still being developed and many years away from LRIP let alone operational status. It was also finally decided upon just as it was also revealed that PLAAF was not satisfied with SAC's J-11D product with the Su-35 being superior in kinematic performance and the J-11D also experiencing issues with a new AESA. There has not been any more Su-35 purchase since and the J-20 is in prioritised production. Does that sound like the Su-35 is better? If so, why not buy hundreds more and stop J-20 production? If it's a matter of just reverse engineering it, well you can't really reverse engineer engines or software without knowing a lot about how it was designed and manufactured. Also SAC is busy with J-35 development, J-15 production, and J-16 with multiple variants of both the J-15 and J-16 including electronic warfare and second generations of upgraded J-15. There is never going to be a Su-35 copy coming out of SAC, probably not even a J-11D. Again the fallacy is not just pointed out but debunked.

Su-35's presence in the PLAAF can even be explained away by the evaluation and training reason alone. The US has done this in the past and probably still covertly tries to acquire opposition equipment for evaluation and training. The Su-35 offers PLAAF some insights into TVC performance and can simulate the Su-30MKI in flight. If the Su-35 is ever offered for sale to the US, they would buy a minimum number of it as well. The same reasoning applies to the Su-57. Even for evaluation and training, it's reason enough to buy some if the price is agreeable. On top of this, they're also useful and supports a relatively friendly MIC and economy.

 

[anzha]

The US has bought Mig-29s and Su-27s secretly in the past and I don't mean training with reunified German airforce WRT Mig-29s. They've also bought Kh-31 missiles too. There is value to buying a small amount for evaluation and training.

For evaluation and training (dissimilar combat training/aggressor squads). Not for general use. I think it would be wise to qualify statements about the US buying them. It does not mean the US considers the Su-57 to be a parity product.

 

[Xizor]

Please, support this statement.

Would US buy J20 ? Yes. China would also like to buy F35 AND F22. But they not friends so....