Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[aksha]

Re: Indian Military News II

[video=youtube;PLvabqCUhTU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLvabqCUhTU[/video]

 

[Equation]

Re: Indian Military News II

There is a pretty big difference in how the Russians have always done things.

There are four major versions of the F-15 (counting the two seaters), but there are more than a dozen Flanker versions. Some of them practically new designs, like the S-33, Su-34 and Su-35.

The Americans and plenty of non-Americans are very aware of how stealth can be achieved in different ways. The Americans chose the cheaper method of shaping because that's how the industry developed. However other industries did not develop the same way, so instead of copying the American method and staying behind, the Russians and French are implementing newer methods of stealth sooner than the Americans can in order to stay ahead in those respective paths.

But then what do I know, I though SD was about class, not personal attacks.

Don't mind AFB that's just his sense of humor that's all. Yes the Russian, French and Chinese develop their stealths differently than the Americans. Does that mean it's better than the other? We don't know for sure. What I believe AFB was trying to get across is that the American stealth develop program is very large and experienced (I'm not talking about R&D) in building it faster if needed. Like I said many times..."It is All about the program"! Program is everything. The only other country that can have a possibly keep up with the US in developing a program is China (all by themselves) right now.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: Indian Military News II

I would agree with @Equation, it is hard to discern exact data on various level of stealthiness. For example, Russians claim their fighter is more stealthy then F-22.

The T-50 Fighter will feature even greater stealth capabilities

Thanks to a new design solution the PAK FA fighter has moved ahead of the American F-22 in its stealth capabilities


The fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jet is equipped a number of technologies produced by Rostec companies that make the plane even less visible to the enemy radar. This design solution moves the T-50 ahead of all aircraft in its class, including the American F-22.

The aircraft company Sukhoi managed to greatly reduce the effective surface scattering of the PAK FA, which is the basic element for visibility on aircraft radars. The average value of this indicator for the T-50 fighter is between 0.1 and 1 square meter.

In order to achieve this level of stealth, designers moved all weapons to the inside of the plane and also changed the shape of the air intake channel, also lining its walls with a material that absorbs radio waves.

Thanks to these new design solutions, the T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters, according to PAK FA chief designer Alexander Davidenko.

Rostec enterprises produced the main parts of the T-50. The company Radioelectronic Technologies created the avionics and other radio-electronic needs for the fifth-generation aircraft. RT-Khimkompozit made the canopy and paneling. The T-50 is the first Russian combat aircraft made from a high proportion of composite materials, making up 25% of the mass of the aircraft and covering 70% of its surface.

The United Engine Corporation is designing the propulsion system for the fighter jet. The work for the fifth-generation engine is taking place at the company “Engines for Combat Aircraft.” The T-50 prototype is already testing the first-phase AL-41F1 engines, a turbofan engine with afterburner and thrust vector control. With this engine the aircraft is capable of supersonic speeds without afterburner effects.

Aviation Equipment, another Rostec holding, developed a unique aviation system for the T-50, including a new power supply system that is two times more powerful than any of its Russian peers.

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[Skywatcher]

Re: Indian Military News II

I would agree with @Equation, it is hard to discern exact data on various level of stealthiness. For example, Russians claim their fighter is more stealthy then F-22.

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The F-22 has a RCS of 0.3-0.4 square meters? Looks like Davidenko should fire his RCS range engineer.

 

[Skywatcher]

Re: Indian Military News II

Then you can believe anything convenient to you.

Wait a moment there. I think we were talking about your conspiracy theory that "Russia held back on AL-31 engines to delay J-10 export prospects" (a conspiracy theory that you have admitted lives only in the land of faked Apollo moon landings and Elvis being abducted by aliens).

 

[FORBIN]

Re: Indian Military News II

The F-22 has a RCS of 0.3-0.4 square meters? Looks like Davidenko should fire his RCS range engineer.

I guess you talk for the more big, rear RCS because Typhoon the best no stealth have 0.5 frontal... then for F-22 the best or others F-35 after your realy farbut very far, several decimals missing.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Indian Military News II

I would agree with @Equation, it is hard to discern exact data on various level of stealthiness. For example, Russians claim their fighter is more stealthy then F-22.

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What are they suppose to say? They are trying to sell the aircraft after all. Even Chinese are saying FC-31 is better than F-35. Should I believe that too?

PAKFA development is very different from American or even the Chinese development. There are basically three different aircraft, two for the Russians and one for India. Probably another one that may come up later for export.

Out of the two for the Russians, one is the PAKFA that you see today, it will achieve IOC in 2017. 60 aircraft are to be made, maybe more later after 2020. The second one is set to fly sometime next year or the year after that, that is the definitive version which will see hundreds ordered.

That's why you see two different prototype development trees. The first one is the one you already see flying. The second set will come up after T-50-6 and later. That's why T-60-6-1 and T-60-6-2 will see a static model and a flying model.

FGFA will be based on the second phase or Stage-2 of the program. And it will also have its own prototype and serial production version models.

The F-22 had 8 prototypes, the J-20 could also be operational with 6 to 8 prototypes, while PAKFA/FGFA could have as many as 15 in total. As of today, there are a total of 6 prototypes (one static) for PAKFA. This will be followed by another 5 or 6 prototypes of the second stage, apart from 3 prototypes of FGFA.

I think you underestimate how well some of us know the flanker series development and Russian aircraft development in general. There would require a lot of work to go from where PAK-FA is right now to an actual stealth aircraft. Considering how long it has taken the Russians to even get Su-35 in service, you can see why we are skeptical here. Based on what I've seen from people who followed program more than I have, the level of changes expected in this second stage in T-50-6-2 aren't anywhere close to what you are claiming here.

 

[Brumby]

Re: Indian Military News II

PAKFA development is very different from American or even the Chinese development. There are basically three different aircraft, two for the Russians and one for India. Probably another one that may come up later for export.

Out of the two for the Russians, one is the PAKFA that you see today, it will achieve IOC in 2017. 60 aircraft are to be made, maybe more later after 2020. The second one is set to fly sometime next year or the year after that, that is the definitive version which will see hundreds ordered.

That's why you see two different prototype development trees. The first one is the one you already see flying. The second set will come up after T-50-6 and later. That's why T-60-6-1 and T-60-6-2 will see a static model and a flying model.

FGFA will be based on the second phase or Stage-2 of the program. And it will also have its own prototype and serial production version models.

Based on what you are saying there is effectively two streams with the Russian program (apart from FGFA) and that is T-50 and T-60. The obvious question is what differentiates the two streams? In other words, what is the strategy that is driving such a development path?

In terms of timeline, the 6 existing prototypes are principally T-50. In order to achieve 2017 IOC, I would imagine the following dates necessary in the development pipeline :
At least a preproduction prototype by 2015
The first LRIP by 2016 to achieve IOC in 2017
The obvious question is do we know what the development gaps are in the existing prototypes and are the gaps sufficiently bridgeable to say a preproduction prototype is round the corner? What are the facts do you know of or are we looking at pure speculation?

Please excuse my questions if they are rather shallow as my understanding of aircraft development is practically zero.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: Indian Military News II

The F-22 has a RCS of 0.3-0.4 square meters? Looks like Davidenko should fire his RCS range engineer.

None of us actually measured RCS of F-22, and Russians probably did (remember frequent Tu-95 and F-22 encounters ) . Also , he didn't say at what frequency and at what angle . It is quite possible that for VHF radars RCS of F-22 goes above 1 sq meter .

 

[thunderchief]

Re: Indian Military News II

What are they suppose to say? They are trying to sell the aircraft after all. Even Chinese are saying FC-31 is better than F-35. Should I believe that too?

Everybody is trying to sell their aircraft, or at least to intimidate opponents . What we know for certain is actually very little (air show performance and some basic physics ) . Everything else, especially things concerning stealth are classified .