Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Anlsvrthng]

My talk about comparing chips does make a point. Ever heard of Moore's law? The Russians have better processors available to them than either the i960MX processors used in the F-22 or the PowerPC processors initially used in the F-35. AFAIK Russian military-industrial projects in aviation and space use some Elbrus derivative of the SPARC architecture. Probably the MCST-R1000. That is a quad-core 64-bit CPU with vector instructions fabbed at 90nm. Which is outdated but less so than the PowerPC processors used in the F-35. Let alone the i960MX.

Moore is dead since 2004, and the I think the parallel processing doesn't help too much with the sensor fusion.

I think that is part of the reason why the F35 is in deep trouble and carry so non affordable development price tag for the US.

A pathetic 1 megapixel consumer grade sensor can generate 1.2 gigabit of raw data stream.

1000 AESA Rx processing element with 100 MHz bandwidth each can generate 100 gigabyte /sec without any trouble.
Now, to synthesise these data require random access, and that doesn't improved a lot in the past decades memory wise.

Actually, that is the reason why the increased memory bandwidth doesn't has too much impact on the CPU performance.

I think it is safe to say the "sensor fusion" has more similar processing requirement to the binary space partitioning than to the matrix multiplication.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Moore is dead since 2004, and the I think the parallel processing doesn't help too much with the sensor fusion.

I think that is part of the reason why the F35 is in deep trouble and carry so non affordable development price tag for the US.

Northrup just completed the 500th F-35 center fuselage, 500 Fifth Generation aircraft, against how many Russian 5 Gens?? currently 10 flying, half of those early production prototypes, and only the last two aircraft are to production standard.... in China?? we know of 2 early prototypes, 4 or so pre-production prototypes, and likely 14 or so production standard aircraft in LRIP, there could be several dozen more?? but we have no clear indication there is??

The F-35 is bringing game changing sensor fusion, along with outstanding L/O shaping and coatings, (possibly surpassing even the F-22 in L/O?) so our partners are receiving production aircraft, and very high end pilot/combat training in the United States.....

anecdotally the Israeli's recently deployed an F-35I to take out a Chinese missile site in Syria, make of that what you will???

you are right in assessing that the greatest enemy of the F-35 are recently elected members of a Democrat majority house, whose goofball's are promising everything, to everyone.......

 

[Tirdent]

Claims are merely claims unless it can be substantiated in some shape or form. Whether it is NDA is just red herring. If there is progress, we know of it because there are prototypes or product demonstrations that at least suggest progress is being made.

Well, I'm frankly a bit at a loss as to what kind of "shape or form" specifically you are expecting here. I can't think of any open source Western "prototypes or product demonstrations" that didn't require suspension of disbelief (due to classification or intellectual property) at a level that would be unable to meet your apparent standards. Can you provide a concrete example for a Western system of the kind substantiation you are looking for?

Since Pirate is the favourite standard bearer, how does OLS-57 stack up against it? Other than its official designation as "101KS-V" we know nothing about it even after so many years of development.

How much was known about PIRATE at a comparable stage in its development? Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence (virtually nothing was known about the F-117 in the public domain until suddenly the finished article popped into the limelight on 10th November 1988, and to this day the specifics of many F-22 systems are not known).

If we know nothing of it, how can claims be made of its capabilities?

How can claims be made of its lack of capabilities, either? I would like to point out at this junction that I did NOT make any such assertions, beyond arguing the almost trivial assumption that it will be an advance on systems that were low-cost tech insertions into legacy architectures like OLS-35.

Look, if you want to disagree that's a perfectly tenable opinion in the face of this lack of information - just say so. But demanding absurd levels of proof knowing full well that it cannot possibly exist in the public domain is a waste of time.

We still don't know what data bus architecture it is using from your source. However I know that MIL-STD 1773 is the fibre cable equivalent of MIL-STD 1553b.

1773 is a form, fit and function replacement with fiber optics for 1553 copper wires using the same protocols. Its intended application is exotic 1553 systems with extraordinary radiation hardness requirements (NASA used it on some spacecraft for that reason), not increased through-put, so it never entered widespread service despite the proliferation of 1553-based architectures.



Speed depends not only on the cable connections but the avionics boxes also, which is why even 1773 is rated for up to 20Mbps *in suitable implementations* according to other sources. Since the boxes in the Su-35S are all new compared to previous Flankers and its radiation hardness requirements are not atypical, chances are the fiber optics were adopted for increased trough-put.

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[Jura The idiot]

I don't mean to spam this thread but based on some recent posts here I became curious what Russians said Su-35s got I mean an on-board computer (read years ago PAKFAs should get a better one); it's this Baguette LOL

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an automatic translation should work

 

[Brumby]

Well, I'm frankly a bit at a loss as to what kind of "shape or form" specifically you are expecting here. I can't think of any open source Western "prototypes or product demonstrations" that didn't require suspension of disbelief (due to classification or intellectual property) at a level that would be unable to meet your apparent standards. Can you provide a concrete example for a Western system of the kind substantiation you are looking for?



How much was known about PIRATE at a comparable stage in its development? Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence (virtually nothing was known about the F-117 in the public domain until suddenly the finished article popped into the limelight on 10th November 1988, and to this day the specifics of many F-22 systems are not known).



How can claims be made of its lack of capabilities, either? I would like to point out at this junction that I did NOT make any such assertions, beyond arguing the almost trivial assumption that it will be an advance on systems that were low-cost tech insertions into legacy architectures like OLS-35.

Look, if you want to disagree that's a perfectly tenable opinion in the face of this lack of information - just say so. But demanding absurd levels of proof knowing full well that it cannot possibly exist in the public domain is a waste of time.



1773 is a form, fit and function replacement with fiber optics for 1553 copper wires using the same protocols. Its intended application is exotic 1553 systems with extraordinary radiation hardness requirements (NASA used it on some spacecraft for that reason), not increased through-put, so it never entered widespread service despite the proliferation of 1553-based architectures.

View attachment 51351

Speed depends not only on the cable connections but the avionics boxes also, which is why even 1773 is rated for up to 20Mbps *in suitable implementations* according to other sources. Since the boxes in the Su-35S are all new compared to previous Flankers and its radiation hardness requirements are not atypical, chances are the fiber optics were adopted for increased trough-put.

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The conversation has become so twisted in meaning that it is no longer comprehensible.

For example, I said "Claims are merely claims unless it can be substantiated in some shape or form" In other words, provide something - anything that would substantiate your claims. In return you are saying I am making absurd demands of evidence.

Another example. You questioned "How can claims be made of its lack of capabilities, either?" You are making claims of something I did not say. You are now creating claims on my behalf.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

I don't mean to spam this thread but based on some recent posts here I became curious what Russians said Su-35s got I mean an on-board computer (read years ago PAKFAs should get a better one); it's this Baguette LOL

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an automatic translation should work

Nice finding, but this is HUD / avionics computer.
Ventilation holes /heatsink means it is a low power, air cooled one.

High power computers needs evaporation cooling ( like the radar CPUs), that require sealed housing with suction / discharge piping.
And because the high power ones are use kerosene for cooling they switch them on only if needed, but this has to work continuously.

 

[ougoah]

Northrup just completed the 500th F-35 center fuselage, 500 Fifth Generation aircraft, against how many Russian 5 Gens?? currently 10 flying, half of those early production prototypes, and only the last two aircraft are to production standard.... in China?? we know of 2 early prototypes, 4 or so pre-production prototypes, and likely 14 or so production standard aircraft in LRIP, there could be several dozen more?? but we have no clear indication there is??

The F-35 is bringing game changing sensor fusion, along with outstanding L/O shaping and coatings, (possibly surpassing even the F-22 in L/O?) so our partners are receiving production aircraft, and very high end pilot/combat training in the United States.....

anecdotally the Israeli's recently deployed an F-35I to take out a Chinese missile site in Syria, make of that what you will???

you are right in assessing that the greatest enemy of the F-35 are recently elected members of a Democrat majority house, whose goofball's are promising everything, to everyone.......

Yeah? And anecdotally, which Chinese missile system/s was taken out by those F-35Is? Didn't realise Syria has HQ systems operating. Are you suggesting they do by posting anecdotal nonsense? As Deino puts it... no evidence = nonsense.

Make of that what we will indeed but for you to use these unproven stories to support your claim is taking liberties.

What possibly happened in that situation was a Chinese radar was attacked by F-35s. No idea at all how credible this story is since we have no confirmation and corroboration. No videos or photos either. Now it isn't impossible that first generation "anti-stealth" radar was/is in Syria and certainly not impossible that it's been successfully destroyed either, BUT it's also just as possible that these radars were there to prove they work and they may have worked 100%. After all why would anyone announce such a thing... tracking those F-35s should be enough to satisfy the Chinese... allowing the Assad forces to shoot one down would reveal their abilities no?

Israel has been VERY careful in using F-35s around that area and often refrain from operating them at all... make of that what you will??? And this is against vintage SAMs. Imagine third gen "anti-stealth" radars using modern SAMs. Guess one downed F-35 will ruin its sales. Explains why they don't dare to operate these so-called stealth fighters against competent adversary. Again make of this what you will guys.

We know USAF is way ahead in adopting 5th gen technology on a level that completely embarrasses the rest of the world (main stakeholders here are really just Russia and China). We know it's the most formidable force. 500 F-35s is an achievement indeed. But there's no need for the rest of the statements about how poorly Russia and China are doing in comparison and then piling on with claims you simply do not know and using information you are not qualified to make judgements on. I get this is a forum and all, but a bit of decorum would be nice. See highlighted parts... were they really necessary and even true?? lol For all we know, Russia and China have perfect counters to 5000 F35s and they're just hiding their ability and waiting for everyone to drain their economies and resources buying an actual dud. Certainly equally as likely as F-35Is destroying a Chinese MISSILE site. Come on.

 

[timepass]

Russia Clears its Most Advanced Fighter for Export; How the Su-57 Can Appeal to Middle Eastern Clients....

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[Brumby]

Russia Clears its Most Advanced Fighter for Export; How the Su-57 Can Appeal to Middle Eastern Clients....

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This is a good development if true. We know the Indians which had access to the program eventually rejected the product. If others are given access to the program eventually we will have more independent assessment of the product as to its capabilities.

 

[gelgoog]

The Indians are not interested in a research article. They want a finished product. Only recently were the avionics finished for example.
The Russians are right now manufacturing the first serial production Su-57. Still it is not the desired configuration by the Russian Air Force.
Which means production will be at a trickle and initial manufactured units will be likely used to train pilots and establish doctrine.

Only once the Article 30 engines become available, IIRC with the 12th production Su-57, will they consider increasing the orders.
There is no rush to put it into production before it.
Russian officials have stated this several times. Fact is, as is, the Su-57 even with the 117S engines can outperform any 4th generation fighter.
It also has way better aerobatic performance than the F-35. But with the new engines it will truly become a 5th generation fighter.

The US won't have any competitive product against it. The F-22 is not in production and was never made available for export.
The F-35 is pathetic in terms of kinematic performance. Sure it has better avionics right now. But I doubt the Russians will keep the avionics at the current level forever.
As is the avionics and weapon systems of the Su-57 are already better than what the F-22 had at its inception or indeed has right now.