Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[vesicles]

@Air Force Brat There is an old saying Brat..... Jagay huay ko nahi jaga saktay.... Translation.... You cant wake up a person who is already awake....

In the end after reading all the zero sum discussions, which by the way reached no conclusion, it was a waste of time.

I also come here to get enlightened BTW

I don't think anyone, including experts working on these projects, have conclusive answers to many questions asked/discussed here. This is what happens when you get into such frontier fields. So many things are unknown and people involved keep pushing the envelop of human understanding in these areas.

At any give time, only those established areas have conclusive answers. Of course, "established" is also another word for "old technology". If you want to stay at the forefront of technological advancement, you will need to get used to not getting conclusive answers...

Especially for a layman like me, I read these discussions to learn, but not to find out conclusions. I've said this before, I get lost most of the time. I would say 95% of time, I am completely lost when Deino, Air Force Brat, b787 and others argue about stuff. But those 5% of time when I can barely follow them, I learn stuff! Albeit not much, but that's still more than what I knew before reading their "endless discussion". And I am happy about it!

And I get to pretend to be an "expert" in front of those lay-laypeople who know even less than I do

 

[vesicles]

Forums are clubs, if you go to VK .ru they had a poll where they asked, which is the best fifth generation fighter, since the forum is Russian , 80% of the voters answered PAKFA.

Ask the same poll here and you will find different results, if you go to F-16.net, you will find F-22 will be the winner.

So if i post this picture, each forum will have a different reaction, so in a forum, in my opinion the ethnicity plays a very important part in the opinion, and that is typical because in forums like this, people let their national feelings run free, i can assure this CG picture will create different emotions depending upon the person

that's exactly why you need to be double-blinded when testing things. Subjective feeling always ALWAYS gets in the way, no matter what you test...

 

[Ali Qizilbash]

@Air Force Brat Sorry if i couldn't make it clearer. What i meant was the i am mostly in agreement with what @Deino said.

My comment was to point out that arguing with a person who don't want to understand is waste of time.

 

[Air Force Brat]

that's exactly why you need to be double-blinded when testing things. Subjective feeling always ALWAYS gets in the way, no matter what you test...

Heh! Heh! some are able to "set aside" their feelings and their prejudice, but it is helpful to understand your own bias, to be honest, bias may well be based on actual experience. When it comes to women, auto

@Air Force Brat Sorry if i couldn't make it clearer. What i meant was the i am mostly in agreement with what @Deino said.

My comment was to point out that arguing with a person who don't want to understand is waste of time.

Thank you Ali for clarifying that, and pardon me for misunderstanding, a reminder to myself and others that as we are an international forum, we may not always "get" what our brother is trying to say. Once again thank you for your patience Bub.

Thankfully we have friends who give us good advice!

 

[b787]

@Air Force Brat Sorry if i couldn't make it clearer. What i meant was the i am mostly in agreement with what @Deino said.

My comment was to point out that arguing with a person who don't want to understand is waste of time.

in forums you can expect this, it does not make you right, it simply is your opinion, but since i know you did not give any source to proof your point pretty much is the old club of people thinking they are right because 2 or 3 share their points regardless is they can prove it or not same as wikipedia

 

[Deino]

The funny thing is that an unreliable "source" even closer to the manufacture - simply since it is a Russian one - does not make it more reliable than no source connected with logic !

But You are correct, we have the right to have our opinion and also to be wrong ...

 

[b787]

The funny thing is that an unreliable "source" even closer to the manufacture - simply since it is a Russian one - does not make it more reliable than no source connected with logic !

But You are correct, we have the right to have our opinion and also to be wrong ...

for me the funny thing is you equate Russian source=lies if you were open to accept you were wrong and not all the Russian sources lie, but i know you won`t admit you were wrong on the 05, it flew, for such a reason you hold the idea it is another aircraft, Sukhoi was against you, that is for me the reason you hold to that.

you only can justify your mistake by saying Sukhoi lied, Air Force brat is the same, in fact he and drumby are hardcore F-22 and F-35 fans.

So here ethnicity plays part of the reason, but what it annoys me, is you think the thread is bad when in reality for me is pretty good it has the reports that i admit some time are the same old reports rehashed but they are interesting to keep a track record historically speaking.

You might get disappointed i have seen your posts but is part of the program, would i like to see more prototypes yes? i would, but these take years, and even despite i look for the pictures everyday at Russian forums where they post all the news, well i do not see any thing wrong in that, but you want to good news every time then, the thread is going to be very few pages because these news do not happen every day, at least now PAKFA has a very mysterious hiatus where you do not know if we are going to see a sixth prototype tomorrow or in 2 years, true i also get frustrated but is no reason to get angry at the Russian sources or Russian officials, you should feel like a boy waiting for Christmas present wait with patience that is what i do.

 

[Deino]

for me the funny thing is you equate Russian source=lies if you were open to accept you were wrong and not all the Russian sources lie, but i know you won`t admit you were wrong on the 05, it flew, for such a reason you hold the idea it is another aircraft, Sukhoi was against you, that is for me the reason you hold to that.

you only can justify your mistake by saying Sukhoi lied, Air Force brat is the same, in fact he and drumby are hardcore F-22 and F-35 fans.

The funny thing here is ... with so far no word You were discussing the points I made and for You no. 055 flew again only due to the fact that another aircraft reused the same number. Please - with at least one sentence - explain me how on earth should Sukhoi managed to "repair" 055 with all this damage without using a completely new centre-section borrowed from 056 ?
Do You really think this is structurally the same bird ??

So here ethnicity plays part of the reason, but what it annoys me, is you think the thread is bad when in reality for me is pretty good it has the reports that i admit some time are the same old reports rehashed but they are interesting to keep a track record historically speaking.

You might get disappointed i have seen your posts but is part of the program, would i like to see more prototypes yes? i would, but these take years, and even despite i look for the pictures everyday at Russian forums where they post all the news, well i do not see any thing wrong in that, but you want to good news every time then, the thread is going to be very few pages because these news do not happen every day, at least now PAKFA has a very mysterious hiatus where you do not know if we are going to see a sixth prototype tomorrow or in 2 years, true i also get frustrated but is no reason to get angry at the Russian sources or Russian officials, you should feel like a boy waiting for Christmas present wait with patience that is what i do.

No, I do not want only good news and I'm also not disappointed, even less I take every Russian source as a lie ... but certain ones and especially if they are promising things since years, over-hyping that bird and nearly nothing so far of all these promises became true.

I'm interested in facts - even if they might not be official, but for what kind of secret project You would get any ? - and not in propaganda.

Even more I don't think that it is only a financial issue ... and if You look closely there are indeed so many changes to the prototypes after their maiden flight which all give a hint for structural issues; one only need to look closely.

Anyway I promise, this is the very, very last post in this tread ... it's simply useless to argue with one who simply does not or cannot.

Deino

 

[b787]

The funny thing here is ... with so far no word You were discussing the points I made and for You no. 055 flew again only due to the fact that another aircraft reused the same number. Please - with at least one sentence - explain me how on earth should Sukhoi managed to "repair" 055 with all this damage without using a completely new centre-section borrowed from 056 ?
Do You really think this is structurally the same bird ??




Deino

I challenge to this give an official source where Sukhoi says officailly 06 was used on 05, i do not want what you read on Key LTD or Secret aircraft forum or this guy said to me or in this Forum, i want an official source, if you can i will apologize to you, publicly, otherwise honestly i consider i am not wrong.

055 is the same aircraft, if they got spares it is not a new aircraft, it is our old friend 055, and believe me i do not care how many likes you get in the forum, i want precision and that means give me something official.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I challenge to this give an official source where Sukhoi says officailly 06 was used on 05, i do not want what you read on Key LTD or Secret aircraft forum or this guy said to me or in this Forum, i want an official source, if you can i will apologize to you, publicly, otherwise honestly i consider i am not wrong.

055 is the same aircraft, if they got spares it is not a new aircraft, it is our old friend 055, and believe me i do not care how many likes you get in the forum, i want precision and that means give me something official.

get over yourself Bub! Deino has built his reputation on this forum as among the straightest of the straight shooters. The USAF would have classified this incident as class A and written the aircraft off. Sukhoi opted to try to save face and pull 6-1 off the line, and renumber it 055, using whatever they could save off the destroyed 055, that's why it took nearly a year and a half to accomplish this small feat???

They have also missed several "official" first flight deadlines because of spending all that time, effort, and money resurrecting 055 from the dead! The Indians seem to have put their PAK-FA buy on hold, and even the Russian Air Force has reduced their buy to 12 Test and Evaluation aircraft for a small test squadron.

Sukhoi is NOT going to admit this in public, not many of us would, but Deino would!

Ali is right, Deino is right!