Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

pmc

Major
Registered Member
An important but forgotten factor is the political climate of the 1990s and the peace dividend that majority of political establishment in America supported. That was the context of that decision. Washington's reaction to 9/11 should have changed Russia's entire strategy but that would require pragmatic thinking, and that would require recognizing a permanent loss of status - something Moscow was (and is still) unwilling to accept with tragic consequences. Psychologically it's always easier to grow than to shrink.
Status in world depend on attractiveness of ideology and culture in addition to practicality of cooperation.

Tu-95MS carries 6 Kh-55 internally and 8 Kh-101 externally. Tu-160 carries 12 Kh-101 internally. Speed difference is not relevant.

you are comparing current load out of Tu-160 with Tu-160M2 whose specifications and weapons are not published.
but fundamentally Tu-160 is designed for much higher speed and altitude operations than the rest. this alone will give big edge in surveillance and entering / exiting battlespace.

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UAC speaks of significant prospects for the Tu-160 platform: further development will allow it to be used for new types of weapons, including promising ones. The Tu-160 is one of the largest and most high-tech projects in the aviation industry.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Britain has "tribute" carriers augmenting US power projection in exchange for minor share of the spoils which feeds the mining and banking corporations on London Stock Exchange. This economic interest is the real reason for Britain's continuing alignment with US military adventurism - compare with Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
Australia has 2 Canberra class LHDs which can probably be converted into light carriers. But all these countries have much less population than either France or the UK. Their economies are much smaller.

Russia has a "vanity" carrier because it has no strategic need for carriers and the problems which can be optionally solved by a carrier, can be solved by other means more efficiently.
In Soviet doctrine the carriers were used to provide air cover to the submarine bastions.

It maintains a carrier because it is an industrial special interest, much more than a political status symbol. If Russia loses its only carrier then an entire area of military production becomes theoretical, and in this market it means nonexistent. Without Kuznetsov there is no MiG-29K and without it there's no entry into Indian naval aviation and additional funding for Mikoyan etc.
Like you said, it wasn't Russia which paid to resurrect the MiG-29K but India, ordering some for the Kuznetsov was a minor cost in comparison. Heck, even Italy and Spain have carriers with aircraft in them.

The influence of Russian defense industry on procurement choices is greatly overlooked. Russian MIC is second only to American MIC in terms of its economic and political influence. The entire modernization of aviation in recent decade has been driven by special interest and economic policy and not by rational choices.
Uh, no. The Russian government started by buying what was available to replace existing outdated hardware. What was available was basically what used to be exported. And then they made investments into some programs for capabilities they needed which the export market did not want like the Su-34 or would not fund like the Su-57.

I won't say there aren't special interests and lobbies in the Russian MIC, but if their lobbying power was that great, you wouldn't have seen so many companies either shuttered or downsized even after Putin was President. One good example of this is that MiG and Sukhoi are now design bureaus under the same corporate umbrella, and they even share the same building. There was a radical downsizing of the industry. Another good case in point is what happened with the BTR-90 and the BMD-4. The BTR-90 was too expensive so its production was cut. And the BMD-4 was an expensive failure, so it was replaced with the BMD-4M, which uses the BMP-3 component base and is much cheaper.

Russian strategic planning and procurement is so inefficient because of nukes. Without so many nukes Russia would have to rationalize ruthlessly and painfully. But with nukes it can afford to put itself into strategic equivalent of heroin addiction.
True. I do think the Russians have too many nuclear weapons systems. For example I do not see any point in making the Sarmat. Still it does have at least one advantage which is it can be used for anti-podal strikes on the US thus forcing them to cover their entire perimeter including the south direction to defend against it. You can also debate on the viability of the Poseidon and Burevestnik as weapons systems. But I think with regards to those two systems the technology itself might be of use elsewhere. In the case of Poseidon it is compact nuclear reactors, and in the case of Burevestnik it is nuclear propulsion on aircraft. A nuclear powered bomber for example would have global range and basically infinite loiter time. The compact nuclear reactor might be repurposed for smaller submarines to replace the diesel subs.

Why Russia wanted Tu-160s? Because at the time Tu-160 and Kh-55 were the most modern tools of air power in Russian arsenal and Kremlin thought it needed it to respond to American air interventions like in Serbia. The alternative was Tu-95MS before modernization and Tu-22M3 with insufficient range and payload.
The Tu-160 is a visible demonstration of Russian military power. And it has been used to deflate tensions all over the place for example by flying to Venezuela and Cuba. You would not need a Tu-160 in Serbia that is for sure. And US interventionism started (or should I say continued) right after the Soviet Union collapsed with Desert Storm. With the Russian Navy mostly gone the Tu-160 is basically the way the Russians have of showing the flag anywhere in the world they want to show it.

An important but forgotten factor is the political climate of the 1990s and the peace dividend that majority of political establishment in America supported. That was the context of that decision. Washington's reaction to 9/11 should have changed Russia's entire strategy but that would require pragmatic thinking, and that would require recognizing a permanent loss of status - something Moscow was (and is still) unwilling to accept with tragic consequences. Psychologically it's always easier to grow than to shrink.
I could say the same thing of the US. That they should have realized the importance of having Russia on their side after 9/11 when they had to go into Afghanistan. So you think all would be well if Russia just acquiesced to US interests then. Why won't Ukraine acquiesce to Russian interests then?

Correct response would be to abandon plans to restart Tu-160 production, focus on deep modernization of Tu-95 fleet and start developing a flying wing design by practical means i.e. starting with a single-engine drone like the nEUROn first demonstrated in 2005.
Russia already had the MiG Skat and has the S-70 Okotnik. The Skat predates the nEUROn. The Tu-95 has been modernized into the Tu-95MSM with new engines and electronics. And the PAK DA is supposed to be a flying wing. So they are in fact doing what you want.

Tu-160M2 is so unviable that Tu-22M3 had to be included to pay for NK-32-02 variant, even though Tu-22M3M is even more obsolete and uneconomical than Tu-160M2 and Ch-47M2 won't change it.
All evidence points to the Tu-22M3M still using the NK-25. We have pictures of the engines in that variant and they are NK-25s. I know it was announced it would use the NK-32-02 but it does not seem to be the case.
You seem to think the Tu-22M3M is just supposed to be a bomber and neglect its capabilities in anti-shipping attacks against US surface fleets. It covers the Russian coast and keeps the US Navy away from it.

modernized Tu-95, especially with weight reduction, could be a viable interim platform for electronic warfare and Tu-95 were used in that role before 1991.
Sure. I agree they could use some kind of turboprop airframe with long endurance. But they aren't the only ones not investing much into turboprops. Most of the world has moved away from turboprops.

Focusing on cheap Tu-95 and viable PAK-DA would be good for long-term strategy but bad for failing industry, and failing image of a self-styled superpower.
The supersonic platforms can be used to increase the launch speed of hypersonic missiles. They will increase the range of the launched missiles in a way which is simply not possible in a subsonic.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Focusing on cheap Tu-95 and viable PAK-DA would be good for long-term strategy but bad for failing industry, and failing image of a self-styled superpower. Compare:
  • US is flying B-52 until it has enough B-21s and retires obsolete B-1s as soon as it can justify not spending money on them.
  • China is flying H-6 until it has enough H-20 and said no to Tu-22/Tu-160/B-1 because it's obsolete concept.
  • Russia is flying Tu-95 until it has enough obsolete bombers because in Russia obsolete bombers are the future.
Problem is you start with several postulate ( statements that are assumed to be true without proof) that is not shared by others, including the military planners and game theory mathematical experts of other countires.

Example, the viability of the penetration bomber is related to the capability of the air defence system , cost of the sorties to the cost of used ammunition and so on .

I mean, the analysis shown by you using up foundations those require way more proof and analys than anything that you shown.


Example, the Russians invested extreme ammount of resources into air defense systems, so if anyone then they have clue about the viability of penetration bombers.

Saying that they making silly mistake by allocation the resources for stand off bombers could means the next :
1. they don't have realistic view about the capabilities of modern SAM systems against Tu160/Tu95/B52/B2/B21 bombers - they expect them to have good chance to defeat a B21, better than in reality.
2. They politically missmanage the funds, and for same reason a person in the MOD in love with Tu160
3. They just slavish clowns without understanding of the hermetic sciencies of electromagnetism and aeronautics , and doing random things without any coherent plan.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Christmas mood is still around so I'll allow myself one more:

In Soviet doctrine the carriers [...]

No aircraft carriers in Soviet doctrine - only aviation cruisers. Nothing to do with Montreux convention because they could be built in Leningrad instead of Mikolayiv. This is just a myth repeated by people who prefer cheap sensationalism to logical thinking.

Soviet planners didn't want to waste resources on aircraft carriers but helicopter carriers were necessary. Soviet aviation cruisers were ASW helo carriers that only later were expanded into general aviation carriers. In late 50s/early 60s through espionage Soviets became aware of US advantage in sonar and submarine technology so they developed "bastion" strategy and used aggressive ASW in that area as a counter. Gorshkov's ideas were as much a psy-op and his personal fiefdom claim as an attempt to expand into even more aggressive defensive posture to deny USN access to the Arctic, except that the last one required more resources than USSR was able to commit to such exotic purpose.

Moskva and Leningrad were commissioned 1967 and 1969 but they were quick, cheap and bad design - 15 000 t full, top heavy and unstable in high sea states.

Moskva class.jpg

Kiev (41 000 t) was developed immediately afterward, laid down in 1970 and commissioned in 1975. It was much better and could carry Yak-38. Kievs also carried 8 nuclear-capable P-500 missiles making them multirole warships. But their primary role was helo carrier and not Yak carrier.

Kiev - Minsk-1000px.jpg

Four ships were built and the fifth was supposed to be the first CATOBAR design. Politburo didn't like that and forced a S/VTOL design but Yak-38 was a complete disaster and that's why Kuznetsov is "helicopter carrier with full deck because Yak-38 doesn't work".

There is no "aircraft carrier" in Russian doctrine because there has never been one in Soviet doctrine so as institution Russia military doesn't know what an aircraft carrier is and how it works. In institutions institutional and not individual knowledge is what matters.

USN doctrine structures the task force around an aircraft carrier. Soviet doctrine structures the task force around a missile carrier - SSBN or CGN. Soviet doctrine is jeune ecole avec grands navires.

Kuznetsov's infamous mission to Syria was completely against Soviet doctrine. It was Putin attempting to mimic US doctrine because to him Kuznetsov looked like a carrier. But if it was a carrier then a carrier doctrine would be in effect and all the relevant elements would be maintained much like the nuclear submarines were maintained despite economic collapse because of the doctrine.

The Russian government started by buying what was available to replace existing outdated hardware. What was available was basically what used to be exported. And then they made investments into some programs for capabilities they needed which the export market did not want like the Su-34 or would not fund like the Su-57.

I meant choices like:
  • Ka-52 with Vikhr instead of Mi-28N with Ataka
  • Su-34 instead of Su-30 with targeting and jamming pods (and modifications to allow for spare fuel tanks!)
  • Tu-160 and Tu-22M over Tu-95
  • trying to develop advanced AIP for Lada instead of Stirling module for 636.3
  • the many missiles manufactured by different companies
  • giving shipbuilding orders to shipyards in different regions regardless of competency
For example of politics: Su-34 vs Su-30 is Novosibirsk vs Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Su-30 could be produced in both, but that would create internal conflict and obstruction that could only be resolved by consolidation - which then would require reduction and the circle is closed.

I won't say there aren't special interests and lobbies in the Russian MIC, but if their lobbying power was that great, you wouldn't have seen so many companies either shuttered or downsized even after Putin was President.

US MIC was told they have to consolidate or die in 1992 and was done consolidating before Iraq War.

defense-contractor-consolidation_b.jpg

Putin became president in 2000 and did all he could to avoid proper consolidation until there was no other way to prevent bankruptcy. He expanded facilities for political reasons in one region while in another there was still an active facility in the red but with administrative staff still on payroll.

He's not responsible for the condition of Russian industry - it was worse in the 90s - but he didn't fix the problem only kept it under control of the state and blamed "foreign intervention" for domestic corruption in the 90s so that he could keep the corrupt structure under control and not have to declare open warfare against them that would cost him his position.

The Tu-160 is a visible demonstration of Russian military power. And it has been used to deflate tensions all over the place for example by flying to Venezuela and Cuba.

USAF can send more refuelers to keep Super Hornets in the air for longer than Tu-160 can stay supersonic while fleeing Venezuela or Cuba. Flying the roundel is purely about presence and thus Tu-95 would achieve the same effect at lower cost.

Russia already had the MiG Skat and has the S-70 Okotnik. The Skat predates the nEUROn. The Tu-95 has been modernized into the Tu-95MSM with new engines and electronics. And the PAK DA is supposed to be a flying wing. So they are in fact doing what you want.

Skat came out after nEUROn and Okhotnik came even later. Sukhoi's constant attempts to undermine Mikoyan aside - that work should be done independently as a strategic program with PAK-DA involved.

PAK-DA financing began in 2008 and after fourteen years it still exists only on paper with prototypes planned for 2023-26. For comparison: B-2 flew with colors (not formally in service due to secrecy) 14 years after formal start of the program. PAK-DA will take 20 years if the 2028 deadline is met, which is doubtful.

Also PAK-DA will replace Tu-95 leaving expensive Tu-160M2 and Tu-22M3M to complement it. The cheapest stand-off bomber is being retired and the expensive ones are kept.

Tu-95MSM is a symbolic upgrade. I have no time to describe what I had in mind but I imagined continued service well into the 2050s.

You seem to think the Tu-22M3M is just supposed to be a bomber and neglect its capabilities in anti-shipping attacks

Tu-22M became a maritime bomber because it failed as a strategic bomber against competition from rockets but production needed to be maintained for political and economic reasons. Naval Aviation took it because they had no other option. For example nobody was willing to give Naval Aviation Tu-95MS and Kh-55 so they had to make do with Tu-22M and Kh-22.

Backfire was made in this strange short blip of an era between 1970 and 1990 when aviation technology was advanced enough to develop a Tu-22M but computers weren't advanced yet to make good radar and good guidance possible. It's the same era that gave us supermaneuverable fighters a couple of years before active seeker BVR missiles. It was a silly time and that's why most designs from that era became obsolete very quickly - they were too advanced/expensive in the wrong area and not advanced enough in others to make upgrades unaffordable (see: F-14)

Tu-160, Tu-22M were kept in service because they were the "modern" design in production most recently. They were also the less efficient, more expensive design compared to Tu-16 or Tu-95.

I agree they could use some kind of turboprop airframe with long endurance. But they aren't the only ones not investing much into turboprops. Most of the world has moved away from turboprops.

Choosing Tu-95 is means of reducing cost. Your first instinct is to choose a new airframe i.e. to increase cost.

The world hasn't moved away from turboprops. They are simply not as efficient in terms of space/area used to generate force/thrust and that has consequences to fuel economy.

Commercial aircraft have fuel/payload ration as focus and the airframe is low wing for aerodynamic reasons. Commercial aircraft drive the economies of production of components. Turbofans are therefore more efficient in economies of scale even though they are more expensive to make and maintain per unit.

However: C-130J, A-400M, MV-22, V-280, all heavy helicopters - all turboprops. The key is to use most efficient solution for each problem.

The supersonic platforms can be used to increase the launch speed of hypersonic missiles.

Scramjets require 1-2Ma for launch. Ramjets don't and deliver speeds of 3-6Ma. Supersonic bombers can't reach 1,5Ma with payload. Etc.

----

Ok, that's enough for now.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I meant choices like:
  • Ka-52 with Vikhr instead of Mi-28N with Ataka
The Ka-52 can also fire the Ataka missile. It can fire both.
wl0SdtT.png


The Mi-28A was the loser in the attack helicopter program. Unlike the Ka-50 it had no night fighting capability or ejectable seats. The Mi-28 platform only got manufactured because they showed it up at international weapons shows and it got customer interest. Development of a night fighting capable version was funded and it eventually got put into service.

  • Su-34 instead of Su-30 with targeting and jamming pods (and modifications to allow for spare fuel tanks!)
The Su-34 has better crew comfort for long endurance missions. It was based on actual military requirements. A tandem-seat Su-30 with pods would have been cheaper to develop sure but it would have fit requirements worse.

  • Tu-160 and Tu-22M over Tu-95
They are upgrading all these aircraft. And they are only manufacturing new Tu-160s. Because the Tu-160 uses similar tooling to the one they will need to use for PAK-DA construction like the titanium airframe.

  • trying to develop advanced AIP for Lada instead of Stirling module for 636.3
Stirling propulsion is noisy compared with fuel cells. It also provides less power and the submarine has less performance when using it.
The Japanese removed the Stirling propulsion in their submarines and replaced it with lithium ion batteries. Stirling is a technological dead end. Why bothering investing in it? The fuel cells also have more potential for other applications. For example several countries are trialing them on locomotives to replace diesel engines. Russia has had loads of problems developing their AIP because it is way more complex than the one the Germans use. Russia wants to use a steam reformer to extract hydrogen from diesel fuel instead of directly using hydrogen. This would vastly simplify the handling of the fuel at naval bases and reduce sustainment costs. But no one has got that to work on a submarine. The Spanish want to do pretty much the same thing, except with ethanol instead of diesel, on the S-80 and that program has also been delayed. Their first S-80 submarine will not have AIP and it remains to be seen what will happen with the others.
The Russians have two programs on better silent mode submarine propulsion for the Lada, one is adding lithium ion cells to the design, and the other is getting that AIP with fuel reformation to work.

  • the many missiles manufactured by different companies
I do think there should be a rationalization of this but so far it hasn't happened to as large a degree as it could have.

  • giving shipbuilding orders to shipyards in different regions regardless of competency
Given the lackluster shipbuilding capacity of existing Russian shipyards they have little choice. Unless they want to wait another decade until they have new shipyards before they begin building ships. Not going to happen. In the case of small ships, you also have the issue of how to get for example ships from the European to the Asian side. How would you move something like a Karakurt from one side to the other? It is simpler to just build the ships there. As for competency that only comes with experience and most shipbuilding in Russia is ossified.

For example of politics: Su-34 vs Su-30 is Novosibirsk vs Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Su-30 could be produced in both, but that would create internal conflict and obstruction that could only be resolved by consolidation - which then would require reduction and the circle is closed.
It is more complicated than that. There were Su-30 models built in both places. One built the Su-30s for India, and another built the ones for China. If construction was driven purely by the exports the Su-34 would have never been developed in the first place.

PAK-DA financing began in 2008 and after fourteen years it still exists only on paper with prototypes planned for 2023-26. For comparison: B-2 flew with colors (not formally in service due to secrecy) 14 years after formal start of the program. PAK-DA will take 20 years if the 2028 deadline is met, which is doubtful.
It is not just paper. They are building 3 prototypes and the Izdeliye RF engine for it was bench tested recently at Samara. I posted a news item with this here not that long ago.

Also with regards for your disdain for supersonic bombers and anti-shipping platforms, I suspect Russia will make at least one such aircraft. Russia has a long tradition of making huge interceptor aircraft all the way from the La-250 or the Tu-28 to the MiG-31. And given modern electronics it is more or less trivial to make a multi-role aircraft. Given the wide expanses of Russia they need some sort of aircraft with a huge radar in it, and it needs to be fast to be quickly deployable anywhere, and as is the MiG-31K can already carry the Kinzhal. If this will be the fabled MiG-41 (that one is actually still pure vapor) remains to be seen.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
Supersonic bombers can't reach 1,5Ma with payload. Etc.

i am sure with newer engines, lighter electronics and materials it can surpass this performance.


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  • In particular, a flight for closed-course distance of 1000 km with payload of 30 tons was performed at an average speed of 1,720 km/h.

  • Su-34 instead of Su-30 with targeting and jamming pods (and modifications to allow for spare fuel tanks!)

Su-30 is not designed for 10 hours flights. it does not have cockpit comfort for it nor it can lift 3000L fuel tanks.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I do not typically post articles like this, which just announce possible future deliveries. But given what we have been talking about here this is pertinent.
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Updated missile carriers Tu-95MSM and Tu-22M3M will enter the Russian Aerospace Forces in 2023​

The commander of long-range aviation, Lieutenant General Sergei Kobylash, specified that after modernization, they acquire improved characteristics and capabilities for their operation.

MOSCOW, 26 December. /TASS/. Long-range aviation of the Aerospace Forces (VKS) of the Russian Federation in 2023 will receive the first modernized Tu-95MSM strategic missile carriers and Tu-22M3M missile carrier-bombers. This was announced by the commander of long-range aviation, Lieutenant General Sergei Kobylash.

"In order to increase the combat capabilities of long-range aviation, a deep modernization of the main types of our combat aircraft to the level of Tu-160M, Tu-95MSM and Tu-22M3M continues, and the production of the Tu-160 aviation complex in the Tu-160M variant has been resumed. Next year, the first such aircraft will go to combat units," he said in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper, published on Monday.

Earlier, on December 21, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu at the final board of the military department with the participation of Russian President Vladimir Putin of Russia announced the need to accept three Tu-160M missile carriers into the aviation strategic nuclear forces next year.

In turn, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation announced on December 23 that the first Tu-160M strategic missile carrier built from scratch would be commissioned this year. According to him, it will be a deeply modernized aircraft based on the Tu-160 with new capabilities and new functionality.

According to the commander of long-range aviation, after modernization, the aircraft acquire improved characteristics and capabilities for their operation, as well as for more accurate use of aviation weapons.

Kobylash noted that in the interests of the association, the development of a promising long-range aviation complex capable of solving a wide range of tasks of both nuclear and non-nuclear deterrence is being simultaneously carried out. All aviation weapons are also being developed and supplied, including new cruise hypersonic missiles.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Russia has a "vanity" carrier because it has no strategic need for carriers and the problems which can be optionally solved by a carrier, can be solved by other means more efficiently. It maintains a carrier because it is an industrial special interest, much more than a political status symbol. If Russia loses its only carrier then an entire area of military production becomes theoretical, and in this market it means nonexistent. Without Kuznetsov there is no MiG-29K and without it there's no entry into Indian naval aviation and additional funding for Mikoyan etc.
It was.
Now the situation is more or less same with France - without outside colonies, but with a realistic need to have at least the theoretical capability to deploy a complete squadron to potential hotspots of Rimland.
There is also clear geopolitical weight and importance to having this capability(not that expensive in a wider context), but it is beyond the topic here.
Scramjets require 1-2Ma for launch. Ramjets don't and deliver speeds of 3-6Ma. Supersonic bombers can't reach 1,5Ma with payload. Etc.
Tu-160 can (internal bay helps), thou dash speed is impractical.
The big problem with tu-95 is that even 95MS(i.e. wide body) is the 1950s airframe. Maintenance issues, ancient techno-magic and skill sets, lack of basic for modern aviation things like ejection sets (=high body counts from time to time).
160s, while not a present itself (world's largest swing-wing means a mechanical masterpiece, and that's bloody expensive) is at least a 1980s, fly-by-wire airframe.
 
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Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
lol.. Why not let the rockets do the magic. All scramjets and Ramjets always have a rocket booster and not need for the carrier to go super or Hypersonic themselves.

Scramjets tho only starts at Mach 5 while Ramjets starts at Mach 1-2 and optimum at Mach 3-4. Scramjet will always require larger or longer booster than Ramjet to get it to the starting speed.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The rocket booster eats up into the mass budget of the rocket. Which means the larger it is, the less payload you will have, or the larger and heavier the whole missile complex will have to be. Why does Iskander have 500 km range, while Kinzhal has 2000 km range? Both missiles have similar dimensions. Why was the MiG-31K selected as the launch platform, and not something like the Tu-95? The answer is the higher and the faster the missile starts out, the more range it will get. Same reason why ATGMs fly longer distances when fired from an helicopter than a ground platform, with the same weight, and the same reason why air launched AMRAAM has more range than putting it in a static ground based launch platform like NASAMS.
 
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