Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
that Su-57 crash must be a delay for Russian aviation ?

Yes, it was the first production bird, and only Su-57 scheduled to be delivered in 2019, it is a tremendous setback, not to mention how inconvenient this is to ones self esteem. Anyway, its too bad, the first production Su-57 was to be a significant milestone, now their back to square one. Hopefully the second production bird will deliver shortly in 2020, but we shall see....
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
So ,let start with the basic vibration theory.
View attachment 56224

Quite simple, to effectively dam the sound with restricted mass and space is to have multiple layers, with different thickness material.
Double hull submarine design?

Torpedo :
Maybe it is hard to recognise, but the Otto II fuel has a pathetic 2.5 MJ/kg energy density.
The kerosene in the P-800 has 43 MJ/kg energy density.

Means the torpedo has to be launched in 10-20 km to have enough energy for a dash , otherwise the target can simply outrun it.
Sounds like quite slim chance for the Virginia to survive the torpedo launch.

H2O2 + petrol has better energy density, but the H2O2 is not the safest material, and the USA doesn't use it. (it is easy to calculate the density, I'm curious to see if you can calculate it : ) )

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


View attachment 56225

I have to confess, 300km is quite conservative estimate to detect an aircraft carrier.
1000 km is more realistic.


In this paper :
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A few chap using commercial grade 160 element hydrophone array followed commercials ships .
The longest detection range was 200 km, and all of those was slow (maximum 8 knots ) commercial ship, not a 30+ knots monster aircraft carrier.
And the detector was a simple 160 elements one, not 3000+ element military grade.
And with passive sonar the detection range increase with the root of the elements, means 25 times more elements(and bigger aperture ) increase the detection range five-fold.
Size-detection range -range of weapons - speed of weapons.
Can you see the design pattern of the Russian submarines ?

Launches :
2017 - Borei and Yasen
2018 - 0
2019 - Yasen and Belgorod (later heavily modified Oscar)
There is nine more submarine in production, they was laid down year apart ,so they should be close to ready for launch.

Any question - comment (beyond emotional outburst ) ?
Stop lying, the Yasen uses a single hull design not a double hull. It's like you can't even keep track of your own subs design feature.
Then let look at the simplified conclusion that for noise reduction is that multiple layers have a positive effect to reduce noise signature, again all well and good. But do you know how much space would be dedicated on a Virginia for noise reduction or the quality of the materials used ? You keep bringing up the difference in size but you keep neglecting (willfully or otherwise) to bring up the fact that much of that space is dedicated to missile silos and torpedo tubes for the Yasen. If the Virgina was redesigned to accommodate 48 missiles and 10 torpedo tubes which frankly is overkill it would be the same size and displacement as a Yasen.
Using commerical grade vessels as a comparison for noise signatures is faulty to the extreme as they have no requirement for noise reduction for surival purposes. Plus you fail to point out in that report that the equipment used for the test are large array hyrophones similar to SOSSUS which are next to impossible to be mounted on submarine. And you are errenously assuming that all navy ships have to travel at plus 30 knots all the time. Sonar signatures also needs to be cleared up and classified in order to avoid civilian casualties and friend on friend incidents, the report also clarified that it was unable to positively identify the other signatures to classify them which is a big downside for a submarine. The rule of the thumb goes is that the closer you are the clearer the signal becomes for you to better identify whether it is any enemy ship or just a blue whale siging.
Then on to the issue of torpedoes, you again fail to consider that modern torpedos are wire guided/automation which allows for different phases of attack speed, and you fail to note the issue of how much fuel would that can be carried on a torpedo and how the bounancy of the sea allows for better energy expenditure. Speed wise, even at extended a range a modern torpedo is still going to out run a ship going at full speed (40 knots for the torpedo, 30 knots for the ship). And again you fail to consider that a torpedo launch is much more stealthier than a missile launch. A modern torpedo is never going to out range a missile granted but it is still much more than the "10-20km) that you claimed.
So stop spouting hyerbolic claims of Yasen subs having 3000 hydrophone sonar arrays or coasting more than 5 biliion dollars. Or size automatically= better stealth which we all know to be false.

Belgorod laid down in 1992, launched 2019 = 27 years difference
Kazan laid down 2009, launched 2019 = 10 Years difference
Knyaz Valdimir laid down 2012, launched 2017 = 5 years difference

As we can see the rate of construction for Russian shipyards is downright terrible, by standard accounts a nuclear submarine should finish it's construction 2 years after it's keel is laid down like what the Virginia class is doing. So let me know when Russia actually builds a submarine on time instead of parading hulls constructed at the end of last century instead of "shoulda coulda woulda".
For example the SSN California : laid down 2009, launched 2010, commission 2011. Big difference.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Again please stop with the bull, you keep bring up the quote "Laws of physics" yet you have never post and formula or calculation beyond what is merely an extremely generalized assumption that "bigger is better" which almost childish it is claim.
it’s clear that our friend is basing his assessment on a number of assumptions not all of which are true.
So ,let start with the basic vibration theory.
View attachment 56224

Quite simple, to effectively dam the sound with restricted mass and space is to have multiple layers, with different thickness material.
Double hull submarine design?
his assessment on missiles is that a smaller missile cannot be Hypersonic. That American designers cannot design a smaller missile.
Torpedo :
Maybe it is hard to recognise, but the Otto II fuel has a pathetic 2.5 MJ/kg energy density.
The kerosene in the P-800 has 43 MJ/kg energy density.

Means the torpedo has to be launched in 10-20 km to have enough energy for a dash , otherwise the target can simply outrun it.
Sounds like quite slim chance for the Virginia to survive the torpedo launch.

H2O2 + petrol has better energy density, but the H2O2 is not the safest material, and the USA doesn't use it. (it is easy to calculate the density, I'm curious to see if you can calculate it : ) )
His next assessment is that torpedoes operate at extreme ranges. This is false long range torpedoes max at 50 km and super cav are close quarters weapons less then a dozen Km due to the fact they are stone deaf. Unable to home due to the very method of propulsion this means that the Mk48 ADCAP series is still very good compared to its foreign equals.
I have to confess, 300km is quite conservative estimate to detect an aircraft carrier.
1000 km is more realistic.


.....
A few chap using commercial grade 160 element hydrophone array followed commercials ships .
Commercial ships are designed without limits on sound profile. This is as why bother. All modern military ships have some degree of sound profile reduction built in for the two obvious reasons, to reduce the potential of tracking by submarines and to assist escort and organic ASW aircraft in hunting said submarines. USN carriers are louder than a Attack Submarine but not as loud as your average Commercial tanker.

He than assumes that Russian Boats have a larger Passive array then American boats. This fails to consider how the Sonars are built the US has and continues to use massive singular bow mounted spherical arrays. Sea Wolf class, Virginia class and eventually Columbia class added to that secondary hull mounted arrays. Yasen class is Russia’s First attempt at a bow mounted Sphere array as such the performance of that array is an unknown. However a Very good sonar on a very quiet ship is better than a very good sonar on a not so quite ship. Yasen is quiet but Virginia is quieter it’s quieter running at flank speed than Seawolf sitting at pier. That’s scary quiet and it’s only going to get quieter

Russian Submarine and surface production is back logged and the Russian military budget is not helping any.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
it’s clear that our friend is basing his assessment on a number of assumptions not all of which are true.
his assessment on missiles is that a smaller missile cannot be Hypersonic. That American designers cannot design a smaller missile.
His next assessment is that torpedoes operate at extreme ranges. This is false long range torpedoes max at 50 km and super cav are close quarters weapons less then a dozen Km due to the fact they are stone deaf. Unable to home due to the very method of propulsion this means that the Mk48 ADCAP series is still very good compared to its foreign equals.

Commercial ships are designed without limits on sound profile. This is as why bother. All modern military ships have some degree of sound profile reduction built in for the two obvious reasons, to reduce the potential of tracking by submarines and to assist escort and organic ASW aircraft in hunting said submarines. USN carriers are louder than a Attack Submarine but not as loud as your average Commercial tanker.

He than assumes that Russian Boats have a larger Passive array then American boats. This fails to consider how the Sonars are built the US has and continues to use massive singular bow mounted spherical arrays. Sea Wolf class, Virginia class and eventually Columbia class added to that secondary hull mounted arrays. Yasen class is Russia’s First attempt at a bow mounted Sphere array as such the performance of that array is an unknown. However a Very good sonar on a very quiet ship is better than a very good sonar on a not so quite ship. Yasen is quiet but Virginia is quieter it’s quieter running at flank speed than Seawolf sitting at pier. That’s scary quiet and it’s only going to get quieter

Russian Submarine and surface production is back logged and the Russian military budget is not helping any.
Well you were 2 minutes late to for my posts, but on a side note do you know of any links for research regarding the range and propulsion of modern torpedoes ? Most public sources claim the average range for them is 60-80 km and the top speed being 50 knots but none of them cared to link them to anything other than the manufacture's claim.

The Yasen goes by a different combat doctrine then the Virginia, so while I don't think it will ever be as quiet as a Virginia. We can expect it to be quiet enough to do what it is build to do, which is to launch 48 missiles at a CBG. From an aqcuisition stand point Russia's naval procurement follows a logical, if but tragic, route. The SSB's comes first which is why we see the Borei class being constructed and completed at such a pace for the sake of nuclear deterrence. Then comes the small to medium surface multirole vessels which both show the flag and assist in foreign power projection better. The SSN program seems to occupy the lowest rung atm, being far too expensive to be built in enough numbers for power projection, at least until Russia embarks on the Husky class.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Well you were 2 minutes late to for my posts, but on a side note do you know of any links for research regarding the range and propulsion of modern torpedoes ? Most public sources claim the average range for them is 60-80 km and the top speed being 50 knots but none of them cared to link them to anything other than the manufacture's claim.

The Yasen goes by a different combat doctrine then the Virginia, so while I don't think it will ever be as quiet as a Virginia. We can expect it to be quiet enough to do what it is build to do, which is to launch 48 missiles at a CBG. From an aqcuisition stand point Russia's naval procurement follows a logical, if but tragic, route. The SSB's comes first which is why we see the Borei class being constructed and completed at such a pace for the sake of nuclear deterrence. Then comes the small to medium surface multirole vessels which both show the flag and assist in foreign power projection better. The SSN program seems to occupy the lowest rung atm, being far too expensive to be built in enough numbers for power projection, at least until Russia embarks on the Husky class.
On torpedo range vs Speed I to go to the manufacture, however I then tone back the estimate because when it comes to performance you have range or speed, Speed or turn. A Fast torpedo is fine for a fixed target at moderate range but the torpedo will burn its fuel out faster be less able to turn or home in. A slower torpedo will turn better or run more fuel efficiently and is quieter. The same holds for missiles or Aircraft.

I agree that these two have different mission profiles. Yasen is meant as a Ship killer replacing the Oscar boats.
Virginia is more a general attack boat designed with more shallow water in mind. it’s missile launcher was aimed more to cruise missiles than anti ship missiles. The USN when they designed Virginia were focused on the more asymmetric conflict model than Force on force. Where the Russians designed Yasen as more a force on force weapons system.
 
waiting in a coffee shop, I noticed a brigade (бригада подвлодок), not a division (дивизия подлодок), would be formed of six new Improved Kilos once they're inducted into the Pacific Fleet

(saying because I think six subs would've made a submarine division in the Soviet Navy)

the context is launching the second Improved Kilo:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and OK I read about "brigade" only in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Brumby

Major
Virginia is quieter it’s quieter running at flank speed than Seawolf sitting at pier.
I believe the actual quote that is circulating in public is "It is said that SEAWOLF is quieter at its tactical speed of 25 knots than a LOS ANGELES-class submarine at pierside."

The Seawolf's propulsion system makes it ten times more quiet over its full range of operating speeds than the Improved-688 class and 70 times more quiet than the initial generation of Los Angeles 688-class submarines. The Seawolf's quieter propulsion system will also enable it to have twice the tactical speed as the I-688.
 
LOL pages of fanbois on fanbois struggle based on what they think they know about what in fact are top secrets I mean actual subs, sonars, torps etc. specs

(hard work of spin doctors in PR Depts generating announcements and quote/unquote leaks for those fanbois)
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Stop lying, the Yasen uses a single hull design not a double hull. It's like you can't even keep track of your own subs design feature.
Then let look at the simplified conclusion that for noise reduction is that multiple layers have a positive effect to reduce noise signature, again all well and good. But do you know how much space would be dedicated on a Virginia for noise reduction or the quality of the materials used ? You keep bringing up the difference in size but you keep neglecting (willfully or otherwise) to bring up the fact that much of t

You must try harder to be seen as an objective analyser of data, rather than a transmitter of propaganda materials.
So, we don't know the internal arrangement of the Yasen, there are pictures those showing the crew compartment with single wall, and the engine with double.
But it doesn't affect the basic wisdom that can be supported by a glazier : if you want quiet house then you need more glass layer, spaced by different distances. And that needs space.
So, if the diameter of the sub is 30% smaller ,then there is 30% less space for sound insulation and encapsulation - and any technological marvel and wunderweapon can only try compensate it.

It is the same discussion like F-35 vs any double engine bird, or a 2 litre tuned "race" car with lot of optical tuning vs a 6 litre real race car with simple design.

Oh, have you heard about towed sonar ? Do you know the connection between receiver spacing and frequency sensitivity?

I am still amazed, how can you be so emotionally motivated in a topic that is simple basic math and engineering ?

And how you can think that a swasplate monopropelant internal combustion engine is quiet?
Seriously ?

And frankly, the torpedo range is not something mythical, knowing the energy density of the propellant, and the water resistance it is damned easy to calculate every other parameter.
It is something that done in the generic "internal combustion engine design"class at any university (usually for more complicated engines)

it’s clear that our friend is basing his assessment on a number of assumptions not all of which are true.
his assessment on missiles is that a smaller missile cannot be Hypersonic. That American designers cannot design a smaller missile.
There is a USA project for 533mm supersonic missile, that is a SAM packed as AShM.
But that is short range, and not air breathing.

Problem is at subsonic a piece of brick can fly with good engine, at supersonic the missile must be designed carefully.
Means if you try to design the supersonic long range missile to the available space then you will end up with an inferior, but extremely expensive missile. (zumwalt guns ? )
The Russian VLS has 2.6 times more volume than the Mark 41 . And it is not an accident, but designed like this from the beginning.


Commercial ships are designed without limits on sound profile. This is as why bother. All modern military ships have some degree of sound profile reduction built in for the two obvious reasons, to reduce the potential of tracking by submarines and to assist escort and organic ASW aircraft in hunting said submarines. USN carriers are louder than a Attack Submarine but not as loud as your average Commercial tanker.
A commercial ship has no other activity than the engine .

The carrier has +6000 man on board, with lot of pumps, lifts , cooling systems, toilets , maintenance activities , arresting gears, radars, valves and so on.
So, if I have to make a guess then the carrier is more noisy than a commercial ship. Unless the USA navy put lot of efforts to make soundproof arresting gear.
He than assumes that Russian Boats have a larger Passive array then American boats. This fails to consider how the Sonars are built the US has and continues to use massive singular bow mounted spherical arrays. Sea Wolf class, Virginia class and eventually Columbia class added to that secondary hull mounted arrays. Yasen class is Russia’s First attempt at a bow mounted Sphere array as such the performance of that array is an unknown. However a Very good sonar on a very quiet ship is better than a very good sonar on a not so quite ship. Yasen is quiet but Virginia is quieter it’s quieter running at flank speed than Seawolf sitting at pier. That’s scary quiet and it’s only going to get quieter
Yasen spherical, but everything pointing to the direction the Yasen - M has conformal sonar.

The rest is mainly pointless, even if the noise level difference true (that we don't know) , the Russian submarines has magnitude bigger strike range, means it can afford to move slowly and listen carefully.
The Vriginia following battleship tactics, the Russian subs following carrier like strike strategy.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
LOL pages of fanbois on fanbois struggle based on what they think they know about what in fact are top secrets I mean actual subs, sonars, torps etc. specs

(hard work of spin doctors in PR Depts generating announcements and quote/unquote leaks for those fanbois)
Everything that the militarises saying on every side about specs, activities and so on is lie .

But, they have to design the weapons with the engineering disciplines commonly available for everyone capable to interpret them : P

Good example the P-800 maximum speed.
Everyone quoting 2 match, it is based on the nose cone angle of the Yakhton/Brahmos missiles on display.
But, there is no publicly available picture of the nose cone of P-800, so all assessment about it has been made based on the degraded performance export versions.
 
Last edited:
Top