Turkey was a level 3 f35 partner since long.
They also knew s400 was squarely designed to be effective against LO targets. Also, even before any s400 deal, US without specific direction indicated that any partner that buys s400 would be excluded from f35 program.
Yet turkey decided to buy a couple regiments anyways. I was just curious, if they knew they were going to be excluded from the program over s400...
<I cut this to right here>
I disagree with
@Brumby a bit here it’s not entirely counter factual. It could very well have played the way Ankara wanted.
All evidence seems that they tried to have there cake and eat it to.
Quote from a member of the Turkish foreign ministry.
"From the beginning, when we entered this programme, we have fulfilled our commitments,"
"We are not a customer of the F-35 programme, we are its owners. While there's no apparent justified reason or legal grounds, we are trying to be pushed out. This is not an acceptable situation. If we are pushed out of this process, we will have to try other ways."
These are excerpts from
I emphasize the Line “We are its owners”
Ankara believes that by being a level three partner they were not simply buying F35s they were developers have a absolute right to do as they please. Including buying F35 and S400 at the same time.
The US told them in no uncertain terms to make a choice F35 or S400.
The Russians were happy to sell S400. They didn’t seem to be scheming with the Turkish Government for F35 secrets. They may have hoped to get a peak under the hood so to speak but likely not through Ankara’s officialdom. President Erdogan believed that the US was bluffing.
The Turkish Government tried to delay making the choice on the face of it. Likely hoping that the administration and Congress would back down. Perhaps schemings they would get F35 deliveries in country and then S400 in country at the same time. Then turn around and say
“Opps we got both?! What do you do now Washington? LoLz”
Hoping that DC would be served a healthy heaping portion of Turkish Crow as he got the best of both sides.
Basically setting the situation on the ground, force the US to play by Ankara’s rules.
His bet was based on The Turkish Air Force being the 4th top buy and a major industry partner would weaken the political will of the United States of American to enforce its S400 Red line And watch the US give.
However when Ankara, He, Erdogan tried to call US’s bluff in hopes of the weak hand only to discover, The US was not playing.
The Jets were pulled. The training pilots sent home The two “Delivered” F35 are still in the US under US control with no more coming and none under Turkish control. Turkey seemed to still have/Had hopes of getting them at least in early August.
However more recently they seem to be more playing to Russia for Su57E.
plus personally I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere hidden inside were a plug to possibly receive 'Stand Down' signal from the Pentagon -- now this is my conjecture
This has been claimed before from as far back as the 79 Iranian F14A after the revolution. When F14s of Iran suffered systems failures.
I find it highly entertaining particularly your spin, but unlikely. Especially given the amount of concern that nations have with the ALIS system for just that reason.
The F35 is an emerging fighter type that limits available spare parts as a rule but as time progresses more parts become available by operating the same lines building the fighters. It’s not clear cut or easy and it’s often a case of trying to stretch the parts on hand and get new ones as you can. But for F35 that supply will increase. As the production line keeps running.
Every flight hour of F35 demands inspection and repair like all fighters.
If the spare parts stop coming the fighters start suffering failures which is exactly what happened to the 79 F14s the Iranians had.
The best “Kill switch” any nation exporting heavy weapons systems has to prevent unauthorized use is to stop supplying spare parts. Especially when you have a system as complex as a Fifth gen Fighter.
To keep fighting in the Iran Iraq war Tehran had to cannibalize more and more F14 taking parts From less and less damaged birds to keep fewer and fewer F14s operational. that creates a situation where the number of operational fighters and systems can only decrease until an alternative supply if found. That took the Iranians years to reverse engineer enough parts to establish a equilibrium of parts to Fighters. And it meant that 79 F14 in 1979 is as low as a dozen to two dozen today.
@Jura you do have a point but wrong place as the spare parts issue has little actual baring here. Because only 2 F35 turned over to Turkey and they never actually left the US.
I lot of things can be found out without it ever flying. Really looking at it through a potential reverse engineering point of view. It would've been like a cold war defection of mig 25 by belenko
In that situation what happened is not reverse engineering so much as realistic appraisal. The West was convinced Mig25 was a super fighter. Able to hunt down and kill anyone or anything that went near the USSR. What really set the record straight wasn’t so much the fighter but Belenko.
He brought a sample in the form of the Foxhound but also a flight manual and his own training. These changed the view of the machine.
Could Turkey have given the Russians a look at F35? Sure but it wouldn’t have been in their interest because it would still have been Turkish Fighters.
Turkey’s President Erdogan is a Neo-Ottomanist. He wants Turkey to dominate the Eurasian area.
To do this he wants a strong military and to be the Arms dealer to the region. This shows in the programs he has launched. LHA, Attack choppers, Main battle tanks and more. Not just for his army but for export.
To take a bite of the European, Asian and American makers by offering weapons and gear made in the region for the region and by the region.
He wants S400 to keep the other fifth gen flyer in the region at bay, Israel who already have F35A and are unique in getting to develop their own package the F35I down the line.
He also wanted the White House and Kremlin to play by his rules to achieve his aims.
Erdogan wanted F35 to form the first of his fifth gen fleet assembled in Turkey that was to include a Turkish Fifth gen air superiority fighter TF-X.
That he could sell to friends and threaten against enemies. He might have given a scrap or two to the Russians in tech yet this ambitions wouldn’t have allowed him to give the whole steak. Now we see the fall back plan the SU57E is being imagined with Turkish weapons and the factory in Turkey making composite parts for it.
