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Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm also not convinced there needs to be a direct replacement for the Su-25 (or the A-10, for that matter).

What does this kind of aircraft bring to the table that a combination of armoured combat helos (i.e. the type Russia favours with the Mi-28M and Ka-52) and MALE UAVs can't provide as well or better these days? The main advantages of a ground attack jet over helicopters used to be range and time to target, but no matter how quick the fast mover is it'll still take longer to respond than continuous UAV coverage that is already orbiting in the area. Survivability against trash fire is not all that much better than a helicopter (Russia managed to lose a Su-25 to rebel ground fire in Syria) if the helo has good ballistic protection and decent countermeasures, while at altitude anything better than a MANPADS will take it down just as easily as a MALE UAV.

Ok, payload remains better than either of the alternatives, but that's far too narrow a niche to justify the cost of anything more bespoke than a Yak-130 derivative.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
This is exactly what I was talking about.
The emphasis on trying to build a flying tank again. Yet that tank is just as vulnerable to MANPADS and anti aircraft missiles as those that exist today.
The method by which A10 and SU25 were supposed to kill tanks back in the day is extremely high risk boarding on suicide. The Idea was that they would be rapid attack systems that would reduce the numbers of enemy tanks to a manageable level in a hot Cold War and although they would be shot down, they would at least take as many tanks as they could with them.
Fast forward to today and the rational fails. Improvements in weapons make it a mission profile that is hard to rationalize. Guided munitions mean that flying at grass level to attack with 30mm cannon isn’t the first choice of attack on tank formations. It also means that engagements can happen well beyond the ability of Manpads to counter rendering the armor less critical.
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It is not suicide. The A-10 was designed as a weapons platform that would use the Maverick TV guided missile.
The cannon was supposed to be used for lightly armored vehicles, perhaps it could penetrate a tank, but that was not guaranteed and the DU ammo isn't in manufacture anymore AFAIK. The A-10 today can also fire the Paveway and the JDAM. The latest variant has the Scorpion HMD.
In some cases, you do need visual confirmation of the target, and you might be in an electronic emissions denied environment.
The platform still makes sense. Otherwise we would not have combat helicopters which are even more vulnerable. A helicopter typically carries much lighter missiles since the platform has less payload capacity than an airplane with the same engine power. This means you need to get much closer to the target. While high-altitude bombing means you need to rely on spotters on the ground to lase the target or transmit the GPS coordinates for it. Which is what the US did in Afghanistan. But in a peer conflict I doubt it would be that easy to get a spotter on the target and like I said the communications might be jammed.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
gelgoog said:
the DU ammo isn't in manufacture anymore AFAIK
Click to expand...
Europe went to a moratorium on it the US didn’t and neither did Russia.
IT’s cheap for the US where Tungsten is imported DU is stock piled by Nuclear reactors.
gelgoog said:
It is not suicide. The A-10 was designed as a weapons platform that would use the Maverick TV guided missile.
Click to expand...
I said bordering on.
The A-10 today can also fire the Paveway and the JDAM. The latest variant has the Scorpion HMD.
Click to expand...
And you just made my argument for me. The main weapon became more and more stand off missiles. The gun system loosing ground. Yet how much of this overlaps with the Su25?
In some cases, you do need visual confirmation of the target, and you might be in an electronic emissions denied environment.
Click to expand...
visual doesn’t mean closing to easy killing range. Electo optics mean that a target can still be seen beyond the limits of the old Mk1 eyeball
The platform still makes sense. Otherwise we would not have combat helicopters which are even more vulnerable. A helicopter typically carries much lighter missiles since the platform has less payload capacity than an airplane with the same engine power. This means you need to get much closer to the target. While high-altitude bombing means you need to rely on spotters on the ground to lase the target or transmit the GPS coordinates for it. Which is what the US did in Afghanistan. But in a peer conflict I doubt it would be that easy to get a spotter on the target and like I said the communications might be jammed.
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Commercial GPS is easily jammed. Military is harder and there are still secondary navigation systems.

The End game plays out the same sustainment and upgrades over replacements. But in peer on peer A10 and Su25 wouldn’t last long against a IADZ with good Sam cover.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
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27 Jun, 16:48
Russian Navy to get two advanced Yasen-M subs under new state contract
It was earlier reported that 46 state contracts worth over $15.9 billion had been concluded at the Army-2019 international military and technical forum

KUBINKA /Moscow Region/, June 27. /TASS/. The Russian Navy will get two advanced Yasen-M multipurpose nuclear-powered submarines under a state contract concluded at the Army-2019 international military and technical forum, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said on Thursday.

"Today is a large-scale event both for the Russian Armed Forces and for our defense industry. Today we have signed a number of large-scale deals. These are firm contracts to be more exact. They relate to the Su-57 [fifth-generation fighter jet] and modern air-launched weapons for this plane. These deals also cover two new Yasen-class submarines. These are substantial volumes and a very significant contract," the deputy defense minister said.

It was earlier reported that 46 state contracts worth over 1 trillion rubles ($15.9 billion) had been concluded at the Army-2019 international military and technical forum in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Yasen Project
Russia’s Sevmash Shipyard has built and delivered the baseline Project 885 Yasen-class submarine Severodvinsk to the Navy. It has entered service with Russia’s Northern Fleet. The improved Project 885M Yasen-M lead submarine Kazan is currently undergoing trials. Five more Project 885M submarines are at various stages of their construction.

The Project 885 and Project 885M submarines have been developed by the St. Petersburg-based Malakhit Marine Engineering Bureau.

The Army-2019 military and technical forum runs at the Patriot Congress and Exhibition Center outside Moscow on June 25-30. According to preliminary estimates, more than 1,500 enterprises and organizations are taking part in the form to feature over 27,000 products and technologies.
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The Russian government is going to order two more Yasen-M and two more Borei-A submarines in a new contract according to reports.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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27 Jun, 14:45
Shipbuilders to deliver heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser to Russian Navy in 2022
The heavy nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruiser Admiral Nakhimov will be delivered after its repairs and upgrade
1224489.jpg

Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruiser
© Semen Maysterman/TASS

KUBINKA /Moscow Region/, June 27. /TASS/. Shipbuilders will deliver the Project 1144 heavy nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruiser Admiral Nakhimov to the Russian Navy in 2022 after its repairs and upgrade, Sevmash Shipyard Chief Mikhail Budnichenko told TASS at the Army-2019 international military and technical forum on Thursday.

"The cruiser’s delivery to the Navy will take place in 2022," he said.

By now, hull works on the cruiser "have been completed and shipbuilders are loading systems and mechanisms onto it," the Shipyard head said.

The heavy nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruiser Admiral Nakhimov was laid down on May 17, 1983. The cruiser was initially named the Kalinin. The warship was put afloat on April 25, 1986 and made operational in Russia’s Northern Fleet on December 30, 1988. The nuclear-powered cruiser was renamed into the Admiral Nakhimov on April 22, 1992.

The Admiral Nakhimov has been in the repair dock of the Sevmash Shipyard since 1999. Actual work on the cruiser’s repair and heavy upgrade began in 2013. After the repair and upgrade are over, the warship will get Kalibr-NK and Oniks cruise missiles and eventually Tsirkon hypersonic weapons.
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Now they say 2022. We will see.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Europe went to a moratorium on it the US didn’t and neither did Russia.
IT’s cheap for the US where Tungsten is imported DU is stock piled by Nuclear reactors.
I said bordering on.
And you just made my argument for me. The main weapon became more and more stand off missiles. The gun system loosing ground. Yet how much of this overlaps with the Su25?
visual doesn’t mean closing to easy killing range. Electo optics mean that a target can still be seen beyond the limits of the old Mk1 eyeball

Commercial GPS is easily jammed. Military is harder and there are still secondary navigation systems.

The End game plays out the same sustainment and upgrades over replacements. But in peer on peer A10 and Su25 wouldn’t last long against a IADZ with good Sam cover.
Click to expand...

Exactly, thus the F-35 will kill you from several zip codes away.
 
Dizasta1

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Time will tell how the Russian Federation fairs on development of befittingly respond to any threat posed to it's existence. The rest is mere cat 'n' mouse games to reciprocate the games played by it's opponents. As it stands, it is the Russian Federation which has successfully tested and is now producing "Hypersonic Missiles" not it's adversaries.
 
A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Jura said:
it's funny the Kremlin created two stories:

2022 for Useful Idiots in the West
(inside #6765 gelgoog, 45 minutes ago),

2023 for domestic consumption
(posted Yesterday at 8:00 PM
now checked they hadn't edited
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since then LOL)

of so called delivery of the Admiral Nakhimov
Click to expand...
The second article sounds like :
Атомный ракетный крейсер "Адмирал Нахимов", проходящий ремонт на "Севмаше", спустят на воду в 2021 году, а флоту его передадут только на рубеже 2022–2023 годов. Об этом в четверг, 27 июня, заявил на форуме "Армия-2019" президент Объединенной судостроительной корпорации Алексей Рахманов.


The nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, undergoing repairs at Sevmash, will be launched into the water in 2021, and will be given to the fleet only at the turn of 2022–2023.

So, here is only one useful idiot , but he is useful for the west : )
 
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