Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
More photos of what could be the first Okhotnik-B UCAV demonstrator. It evolved from the MiG Skat program.

Nope, Skat was essentially a private venture by MiG (Okhotnik is a Sukhoi design!) which was turned down by the Russian MoD. Regrettably so, IMHO - it was a competent effort, could have flown much earlier (a very detailed mockup was first presented in 2007!) and would have been a FAR more productive way of subsidizing the company than the warmed-over MiG-29s they've now been reduced to. One of the biggest military procurement blunders in Russia of the past 30 years (others: Su-34, Il-76MD-90/An-70/Il-96, An-148, Poseidon, Kinzhal).

But until quite recently, Russian defence policy makers were utterly clueless about UAVs/UCAVs, so their industry is forced to play catch-up now.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
These are not issues; it seems that the Russians simply chose to save a bit of time to test their demonstrator/prototype. There is no need to test new technologies aboard a demonstrator and I fully expect them to have shielded engine exhausts once the production variant is close to flight, as with the case of the Chinese Sharp Sword and CH-7.

This.

Look at the X-47B, which was aerodynamically representative of a stealthy UCAV but had a similar collection of lumps and antennas (and while its nozzle was a flat one, the integration with the airframe was decidedly improvised, with exposed exhaust deck edges) for a similar example. It wasn't intended to test LO properties but demonstrate autonomous refueling and carrier operations, so stealthy systems and airframe coatings would have just been a pointless waste of money.

Consider also that the leaked slide which provided the first public glimpse of Okhotnik showed what (with hindsight) was probably a full-scale mock-up or RCS test model with a stealthy rear end:

hunter.jpg
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Nope, Skat was essentially a private venture by MiG (Okhotnik is a Sukhoi design!) which was turned down by the Russian MoD. Regrettably so, IMHO - it was a competent effort, could have flown much earlier (a very detailed mockup was first presented in 2007!) and would have been a FAR more productive way of subsidizing the company than the warmed-over MiG-29s they've now been reduced to. One of the biggest military procurement blunders in Russia of the past 30 years (others: Su-34, Il-76MD-90/An-70/Il-96, An-148, Poseidon, Kinzhal).

But until quite recently, Russian defence policy makers were utterly clueless about UAVs/UCAVs, so their industry is forced to play catch-up now.

I agree that it would have been better to fund the Skat than the MiG-29 upgrades. I don't know what you mean about the Su-34 being a blunder though. Delayed, maybe, but it was eventually produced in decent numbers and it is much better than its predecessor.

You cannot really fault the Russians with not wanting to rely too much on Antonov either. Just see what happened once the Ukrainian revolution happened. It delayed their naval construction buildup probably by a decade. Had they relied even more on Ukrainian transport aircraft it would have been even worse. The Russians have been making a huge effort in import substitution for Ukrainian products, even before that happened, but initially it was contained to small turbine engines (for helicopters and trainers) and space launcher/ballistic missile rocket engines. I think the reason for the dismal production numbers of the Il-76MD-90 or the Il-96 are because they are obsolete airframes with obsolete engines. The government basically funded these programs so the engineers would not be idle but they are not what the government actually wants to fulfill those requirements. Once the PD-14 and PD-35 engines become available then work on larger body aircraft can proceed. But if you examine it carefully the Russian requirements for large body civilian aircraft are quite limited to begin with. So it is more economically viable for them to import those. The exception is military transport and refuel aircraft which can be mostly handled with a regular widebody aircraft technology like the one they are developing with the Chinese for the CRAIC CR929.

Russia has a decent requirement for narrow-body airliners, which they are fulfilling with both the Sukhoi Superjet and soon with the MC-21. Plus a healthy requirement for smaller wide body aircraft to be fulfilled eventually with the CRAIC CR929. But the amount of commercial large aircraft they actually need is quite limited. Look at Aeroflot's fleet as an example. The largest aircraft in their fleet are 17 Boeing 777-300ER with 5 more in order. Counter that with the 213 narrow body aircraft in service (A320, 737, Superjet) or the 36 smaller wide bodies including orders (A330, A350-900).
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Just think about it. The PD-35 engines the Russians are developing for the CR929 will have twice the thrust of the Il-76 engines and almost twice the thrust of the C-17 engines. This means they can make an aircraft with similar transport capacity to the Il-76 but with two engines instead of four. Which will be stupendously less expensive to both manufacture and operate than the Il-76.

So is it surprising they have been unwilling to manufacture large quantities of the Il-76?
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
You cannot really fault the Russians with not wanting to rely too much on Antonov either. Just see what happened once the Ukrainian revolution happened. It delayed their naval construction buildup probably by a decade. Had they relied even more on Ukrainian transport aircraft it would have been even worse. The Russians have been making a huge effort in import substitution for Ukrainian products, even before that happened, but initially it was contained to small turbine engines (for helicopters and trainers) and space launcher/ballistic missile rocket engines.

Fair enough, but even failing to acquire and indigenize the An-70 & An-124 (would have required proactive and timely action, but Russia's leadership only does that once events force their hand), moving Il-76 production to Russia at incredible expense was a stupid move. Upgrade the existing Il-76 fleet with PS-90 engines, glass cockpit and modern defensive aids and launch development of a successor ASAP.

So is it surprising they have been unwilling to manufacture large quantities of the Il-76?

If only it was merely down to lack of will - sadly I'm pretty sure it is in fact lack of ability. IIRC the order book stands at ~40 (which isn't that small a quantity at all), excluding platforms for the A100 AWACS.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree that it would have been better to fund the Skat than the MiG-29 upgrades. I don't know what you mean about the Su-34 being a blunder though. Delayed, maybe, but it was eventually produced in decent numbers and it is much better than its predecessor.

It's a bit harsh, as - unlike the MiG-35 - the Su-34 is a world-class aircraft.

The problem is that it's an expensive platform which is rather extraneous for an air force with a large fleet of Tu-22M3 theatre bombers and access to Su-30MKI/SMs. Between the Backfire and the Su-30 (itself a powerful, F-15E-class strike aircraft), the money spent on the Fullback is just a bit of a waste - a cost which Russia, with its economic problems can ill afford. Thanks to the delays you mentioned, it would have been more efficient to pull the plug on the Su-34 and instead accelerate both the Tu-22M3M upgrade and Su-30SM deliveries (which started only in 2012 - the basic Su-30MKI had been around for almost 10 years by then!). This would also have streamlined logistics (ongoing operating cost) by eliminating one type from the inventory.

Strike payload/range (the main selling point of the Su-34) simply is not something the RuAF was ever particularly lacking in, making it a typical case of spreading scarce funding over too many projects. Perhaps if they'd axed the Tu-22M3 instead, but 3 different tactical strike platforms is just absurdly extravagant for a country in this budgetary position!

I think the reason for the dismal production numbers of the Il-76MD-90 or the Il-96 are because they are obsolete airframes with obsolete engines. The government basically funded these programs so the engineers would not be idle but they are not what the government actually wants to fulfill those requirements. Once the PD-14 and PD-35 engines become available then work on larger body aircraft can proceed. But if you examine it carefully the Russian requirements for large body civilian aircraft are quite limited to begin with. So it is more economically viable for them to import those. The exception is military transport and refuel aircraft which can be mostly handled with a regular widebody aircraft technology like the one they are developing with the Chinese for the CRAIC CR929.

As for the Il-96, I think you misunderstand the nature of my criticism of this project, I think it's a potentially sound aircraft which has been catastrophically mismanaged.

In no way do I condone the continued attempts to sell it as a passenger airliner (let alone efforts beyond what was actually done) - those should have been stopped once and for all in 2000 at the very latest. By then it was abundantly clear that the domestic market was too small to support production and foreign airlines were never going to accept the Il-96 no matter how much it was upgraded. Instead, all resources should have been concentrated on aiming it at those niche markets where it could still have been internationally competitive: civilian cargo and military tanker (where it outperforms the Il-78, even re-engined, by a very impressive margin). Obviously this would not have provided for a huge production run either (market volumes are small in both cases), but if the decision had been implemented in 2000 or soon after I would bet almost anything that the numbers would have been be vastly better than with the strategy actually implemented. Around that time there was a very favourable window of opportunity due to a convergence of 5 factors:

- the Il-96T freighter with Rockwell-Collins avionics and Pratt & Whitney engines had just received FAA certification in the USA, making the aircraft saleable to customers used to operating Western equipment in Western-oriented countries
- Boeing had just ended further production of the MD-11 (an aircraft with operating economics and performance very closely matched by the Il-96), cutting off supply of new-build freighters and capping the stock of second-hand passenger versions available for conversion
- Boeing failed to deliver a new-build successor for the MD-11F (the 777F) until 2009, and still has not launched a conversion programme for second-hand passenger 777s to this day
- Airbus likewise did not offer a comparable freighter (A330) as new-builds or conversions until 2010 and 2017 respectively
- the A330MRTT military tanker similarly did not enter the market until 2011

To appreciate how favourable the situation in the 2000s was you only need to consider the absurdly high prices passenger MD-11s (despite being roundly rejected for passenger duty in favour of Boeing & Airbus counterparts) commanded on the second-hand market at the time, simply because they were the only source of efficient freighters in that size category. While - like the MD-11 - the Il-96 was hopelessly outclassed by the 777, A330 and A340 as a passenger aircraft, it would (particularly with P&W engines) have easily held its own as a new-build on the cargo market (where used MD-11s would've been the only opposition for approximately a decade). Ilyushin wouldn't have secured a massive piece of this pie, but I think up to 24 sales is an entirely realistic estimate. For reference, of the 200 MD-11s sold almost 60 were already delivered as freighters from the factory (compare that 30% share to the 777 or A330) and a further 80+ (!!!) were later converted as second-hand aircraft.

In the military tanker market I'm pretty sure India would have been only too happy to take vastly superior Il-96 tankers instead of the D-30 powered (!) Il-78MKIs it actually got in 2003. That's 6 exports right there, and it would have made the aircraft a shoo-in for a follow-up order over another 6, which the re-engined Il-78 managed to lose *twice* to the A330MRTT because it is so outdated. While the Airbus offers lower fuel-burn, the Il-96 would have been the incumbent (crew training!) and had engine commonality with either the A-50EI (PS-90A) or C-17A (PW2000/F117). Finally, given how sensitive to sticker price the Indian GAO has proved to be, my guess is that Ilyushin would almost certainly have walked away with the second contract if the Il-96 rather than the Il-78 had been on offer (better than the A330 in performance, but still cheaper to buy). Then there's Algeria, who currently operate 4 Il-78s and are looking for a replacement - they have taken a good look at the MRTT and if it wasn't for the steep price they'd probably be on the books already. While the re-engined Il-78 was apparently not even considered, I dare say the an Il-96 based tanker would have been a much more formidable contender - quite possibly another 4 sales. Then there's China with its contract for 8 Il-78s that fell apart in 2006 or thereabouts due to the bankruptcy of the TAPO final assembly plant. Without considering less obvious candidates like Indonesia, Brazil, Egypt or Venezuela that's 24 excellent export prospects (very respectable for a tanker of this size and non-Western origin) against the re-engined Il-78's complete failure.

In fact, counting only export sales for both, this would put the Il-96 tanker ahead of Boeing's 767 tanker (*including* second-hand conversions by IAI)! Add 24 airframes for the Russian air force and just like that, without absurdly optimistic assumptions, we have boosted Il-96 production by some 70 aircraft, which is more than double its actual run (30 units, many of which would have been built anyway, so the total could be pushing 90*).

In summary, my argument runs thus: since the Russian government was apparently not prepared to let the Il-96 die, why not support the project in a way that maximises its market success, production numbers and utility to the military (*vastly* more capable tanker)? Instead of ordering more VIP passenger models than they themselves know what to do with and flushing money down the drain on a minor upgrade (Il-96-400) that is still doomed to failure in the passenger market and merely diverts resources away from the CR929.

* Worst case? 58: 18 tankers for the RuAF (basically the bare minimum for an air force with its kind of strategic bomber force), 18 exports (only 6 sales to India, as compared to above), only 6 civilian cargo sales beyond those achieved in reality (e.g. 4 Aeroflot Cargo, 2 Cielos Peru), 6 passenger models to Aeroflot (in service before 2000), 4 passenger models for Cubana (safe bet, simply because they have no alternative :D), 4 freighters for Polet (the only ones to enter service in reality) and 2 presidential planes (the other VIP aircraft are basically pork-barrel subsidies that would likely not have materialised with the project in better shape like this). Still almost twice as many as they managed in reality with their nonsensical focus on the passenger market.

Best case? 24 RuAF tankers, 34 tanker exports, 24 civilian freighters (displacing virtually all MD-11 passenger conversions that didn't go to large-scale operators FedEx, UPS or LH Cargo in reality) plus the 16 actually delivered aircraft mentioned above, making a total of almost 100. Just let that sink in for a moment...
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Well, there are several problems with this kind of game plan. I agree that the Russians would have better off making a tandem-seat Su-27 Flanker variant into a bomber instead of wasting time and resources in the Su-34 program given they have the heavy bombers.

However AFAIK the Su-34 was mostly funded with internal Sukhoi money. They saw a need for it to replace the Su-24 Fencer and perhaps the Tu-22M3 bombers in some capability after the Sukhoi T-60S was cancelled due to lack of funds in the 1990s. The Su-34 cockpit enables them to use the airplane for longer endurance missions than a tandem seat aircraft. Given the finances of the Russian economy back when the Su-34 was designed it was not totally clear, in fact quite the opposite, that they could continue to either maintain or upgrade their Tu-22M3 aircraft. You have to remember that both the Tu-22M3 and the Tu-160 use engines with about twice the thrust of the AL-31 which have not been in production for decades. Even worse, each aircraft uses its own similar in specs but not quite the same engine model.

Hence the original proposal to replace all their heavy bombers with the stealth PAK-DA subsonic aircraft once the Russians did have some money. Which eventually got postponed because, I think, they realized making an engine in the NK-32 class was not quite as far fetched. Since there was also a need for an engine with that thrust capacity for their wide body civilian aircraft program anyway. So they eventually got the money to start the R&D on it when the oil prices went up and they had the reserves. So it was killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

With regards to the An-124 Ruslan or the An-70 you would have two issues. First, you would need to convince the Ukrainians to share the technology since the whole base of it was in Ukraine. Second, both aircraft (especially the An-124) probably predate the use of modern CAD tools. So it is quite likely the designs are in paper schematics which would have to be input into a CAD application. One wonders then if you wouldn't be better off designing a whole new fuselage which would use modern materials and techniques instead. Worse, both aircraft use engines which have no other application. The An-70 uses a noisy prop-fan engine. The An-124 uses a large turbofan engine that is now basically obsolete in terms of fuel consumption or noise levels.

The Russians instead decided to import Western know-how into the smaller aircraft engine area with the PowerJets engine manufacturing plant which is a joint Russo-French enterprise which manufactures engines for the Sukhoi Superjet narrow body aircraft i.e. a regional airliner. I think this was a lot more viable especially since at the time Russia did not have that many oil resources to spend on large engine or aircraft R&D. A similar joint venture with Pratt & Whitney led to the PS-90 series of engines. The Russians need to go for multiple use technologies, not single use technologies, because of their limited resources.

The Il-96 had the issue that the engines were obsolete back in that era. They used a lot of fuel and made a lot of noise. Could not even operate in several Western airports. The market for cargo aircraft was and is saturated with second hand large body quad engine aircraft like 747s which can't even be given away. Even the second hand A380s are being disassembled for parts. Because the parts are worth more than the actual market value for the aircraft. The quad engine A340 has also been a market disaster.

So the Russians, due to the limited resources and know-how, went for joint ventures in the large civilian engine sector. The problem is, as they later found out, this meant they ran into obstacles when exporting civilian aircraft with those engines to countries like Cuba or Iran. So they've been basically replacing the imported components with Russian substitutes. Which I think they expected to do in the long run but not need to do it nearly as fast. So they saved some money and time and got to work with modern engine technology but then they had to reverse engineer a lot of it on their own or come up with substitutes.

The Il-76MD-90 tanker is now available. But I think the engine production capacity is still low enough that they won't produce a lot of units of that. Also once the PD-14 engine becomes available that will basically obsolete PS-90 engine equipped aircraft in terms of fuel burn and maintenance costs. Once the PD-35 engine becomes available, like I said, then it won't even make sense to have a quad engine like the Il-76 because you replace it with a dual engine similar to the A330 MRTT i.e. make a military version of the CR929. That will be more cost effective and multiple use.

So yes in the short run it looks like the Russians are screwed but in the long run, if their aviation sector plays it smart and reduces the amount of engines in development, they can pull through this ordeal quite fine. This does mean the next 5 years or even 10 years will be a long hard slough though. Supposedly they expect to manufacture some NK-32 derivative engine, to fill the gap, until the PD-35 engines become available. But it remains to be seen how that will work in practice.
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
Nope, Skat was essentially a private venture by MiG (Okhotnik is a Sukhoi design!) which was turned down by the Russian MoD. Regrettably so, IMHO - it was a competent effort, could have flown much earlier (a very detailed mockup was first presented in 2007!) and would have been a FAR more productive way of subsidizing the company than the warmed-over MiG-29s they've now been reduced to. One of the biggest military procurement blunders in Russia of the past 30 years (others: Su-34, Il-76MD-90/An-70/Il-96, An-148, Poseidon, Kinzhal).

But until quite recently, Russian defence policy makers were utterly clueless about UAVs/UCAVs, so their industry is forced to play catch-up now.

Duly noted, interesting perspective on Russia's evolving air force doctrine.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
However AFAIK the Su-34 was mostly funded with internal Sukhoi money.

I doubt it - and even if it was, the Tu-22M3 was already in existence (with established support infrastructure) while the Su-30MKI/SM was funded mostly with Indian money. Which ever way you cut it, cancelling the Fullback is cheaper (the only question may be by how much).

The Su-34 cockpit enables them to use the airplane for longer endurance missions than a tandem seat aircraft.

That's what the Tu-22M3 is already there for. Fit it with avionics (radar, laser designator, ECM) developed for the Su-34 so as to take advantage of sunk costs to the maximum possible extent and increase commonality with the Tu-160 (NK-32 engine as on the Tu-22M4 one-off, K-36 ejection seat).

Basically, as I said, bring the Tu-22M3M upgrade forward by a decade, using the money saved by cancelling the Su-34.

Given the finances of the Russian economy back when the Su-34 was designed it was not totally clear, in fact quite the opposite, that they could continue to either maintain or upgrade their Tu-22M3 aircraft. You have to remember that both the Tu-22M3 and the Tu-160 use engines with about twice the thrust of the AL-31 which have not been in production for decades. Even worse, each aircraft uses its own similar in specs but not quite the same engine model.

So why didn't they accelerate Su-34 procurement and axe the Backfire? I love both aircraft, so that solution would be equally painful to my enthusiast's mind, but rationally I'd be open to this alternative (as I indicated earlier). The fact of the matter is though, neither happened and that is a blunder because it represents a massive waste of resources.

I can understand the intent (guarding against job losses in as many companies and factories as possible), but it was still counterproductive - two healthy projects beat three dysfunctional ones any day of the week.

With regards to the An-124 Ruslan or the An-70 you would have two issues. First, you would need to convince the Ukrainians to share the technology since the whole base of it was in Ukraine. Second, both aircraft (especially the An-124) probably predate the use of modern CAD tools. So it is quite likely the designs are in paper schematics which would have to be input into a CAD application. One wonders then if you wouldn't be better off designing a whole new fuselage which would use modern materials and techniques instead. Worse, both aircraft use engines which have no other application. The An-70 uses a noisy prop-fan engine. The An-124 uses a large turbofan engine that is now basically obsolete in terms of fuel consumption or noise levels.

Which is different to what they were later forced to do with the 1960s Il-76 in what way exactly?

As I said, it would have required proactive and timely action, but the opportunity was there. The ultimate Russo-Ukrainian split in 2014 ought not to have come as a total surprise - it had been brewing for years and the Orange Revolution should have set off all alarms in Russia. That was in 2005 - they had almost ten years to either buy Ukraine out of the An-124 and An-70 (Antonov offered them exactly that until very recently in a bid to get at least some money out of their investment into the An-70) or join China's Y-20 project (an offer which was likewise on the table, according to some sources).

Either move would have given them a decently modern airlift fleet and thus postponed the need to fund development of a clean-sheet medium cargo aircraft by ten or twenty years.

BTW, it's not as though the entire industrial base for Antonov aircraft is in Ukraine, according to estimates I've seen the contribution by Russian suppliers in both the airframe and engines from Progress/Motor-Sich reaches some 60%. While that still means more subsystems (particularly the two engine types) to indigenize, the An-124, *unlike* the Il-76, even had an established final assembly line on Russian soil (Aviastar in Ulyanovsk), so only one new line to open in any case. Both are also still fairly modern designs - the An-124 has supercritical airfoil sections, composite control surfaces and fairings; the An-70 adds composite empennage and FBW.

The Russians instead decided to import Western know-how into the smaller aircraft engine area with the PowerJets engine manufacturing plant which is a joint Russo-French enterprise which manufactures engines for the Sukhoi Superjet narrow body aircraft i.e. a regional airliner. I think this was a lot more viable especially since at the time Russia did not have that many oil resources to spend on large engine or aircraft R&D. A similar joint venture with Pratt & Whitney led to the PS-90 series of engines. The Russians need to go for multiple use technologies, not single use technologies, because of their limited resources.

PowerJet was more about tapping Safran's reputation and support network to appeal to Western-oriented customers. Ironically enough, one of the parts supply shortages that are currently plaguing the SSJ apparently concerns the Safran section of the engine - inadequate funding will hit Western suppliers just as badly, there is no magic pixie dust.

Which is why the An-148 should never have received Russian support BTW (let alone a final assembly line in Russia), use that money to ensure adequate SSJ support infrastructure.

The Il-96 had the issue that the engines were obsolete back in that era. They used a lot of fuel and made a lot of noise. Could not even operate in several Western airports. The market for cargo aircraft was and is saturated with second hand large body quad engine aircraft like 747s which can't even be given away. Even the second hand A380s are being disassembled for parts. Because the parts are worth more than the actual market value for the aircraft. The quad engine A340 has also been a market disaster.

Quads continue to do very well in the cargo market - the only reason why Boeing hasn't already shut the 747 line down is that the likes of UPS and Air Bridge Cargo keep coming back for more. In that regard the A340 and A380 may well have been hamstrung by not having a cargo versions (actually planned in the A380's case, but cancelled despite orders from FedEx) or conversion programmes available.

However, I don't quite see what bearing the CURRENT cargo market has on the issue when I'm clearly talking about a window of opportunity that stretched from 2000 to about 2010 - that was 10 to 20 years ago! Nowadays the MD-11 is firmly on the way out too - passenger operations have already ceased completely. Those civilian market opportunities (and some of the tanker prospects) aren't coming back, the Russians irrevocably dropped the ball on the Il-96 - that's precisely the blunder I meant.

Oh and don't knock the PS-90A - it's a decent engine that just never got the opportunity to move down the learning curve and work out the teething troubles due to lack of production volume. Nowadays they are achieving 11000h on-wing times (NOT service life! Time between repairs serious enough to require it to be taken off the aircraft!) - not exactly world-beating (the CFM-56 routinely lasts comfortably more than 30000h) but pretty respectable. The Pratt & Whitney PW2000 (a contemporary design to the PS-90A, in the same thrust-class and architecturally similar) started out with about 12000h...

It is also not such a terrible gas guzzler either - worse than the PW2000 due to lower bypass ratio at comparable overall pressure ratio but equal to or better than the other major competitor, the RB.211-535E which has a similar BPR but lower OPR (the Rolls is a lot more reliable than either of the others though, making it extremely popular on the Boeing 757). As for noise, the PS-90A is certified to ICAO Stage IV standards (check the EASA emissions database, if you don't believe me), same as Western engines of its generation - and why would it not be, with a BPR of almost 5 and a mixed exhaust nozzle nacelle?

All of this is moot however - for civilian sales the engine of choice would have been the PW2000 (FAA certified on the Il-96T in 1999 or 1998). All it would have taken was some more money to start series production and a concerted sales drive.

The Il-76MD-90 tanker is now available.

Yeah, a warmed-over variant of a 1960s design is ready to be delivered to the Russian airforce in 2019 - why wasn't a derivative of a wholly superior 1980s design ready 15 years earlier? That's the question which frames the military aspect of the mishandling of the Il-96 quite nicely.
 
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