Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
For those still in doubt about Tsirkon propulsion
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Tsirkon does include a rocket boost stage to launch off ships and get the missile section to speed. This doesn't actually prove that the Tsirkon is only rocket powered.

It's most likely the "dual purpose/ hybrid ramjet" propulsion used on the Boeing Hyfly and DF-100. But Russia claims mach 7 (+/- 2 mach) for Tsirkon whether that's terminal, cruise, average, top speed or whatever. This aligns with Boeing's claim of this type of engine capable of running to mach 6. DF-100 however is said to be somewhere between mach 3 and 5, again with no spec on whether this is average, top, cruise or terminal speed. It matters. But again, it's my contention these three are very similar missiles. Something US never even completed, something China considered to be second rate even in the 2010s and stopped production around 2020. That's even if it is this relatively fancy air breather.

The true HCM is CJ-1000 and YJ-19. Unknown propulsion types but think scramjet/ sodramjet if you believe in the traditional Chinese declassification method of only revealing outdated stuff or rotating detonation if you think those have matured enough even in the late 2010s for CJ-1000 and YJ-19 declassification to be allowed in 2025.
 

pmc

Brigadier
Registered Member
Difference is flight profile, Zircon can have a ballistic trajectory with much increased range, or fly a suppressed cruise trajectory and have ~1000km range. AAM's are pretty much only flown in a ballistic loft. Zircon is maneuverable with suppressed flight profile. Only negative point towards it being a HCM is that it is not air breathing. Zircon in cruise is also much faster than Mach 6. Some simply call Zircon a powered HGV. Zircon's sustainer motors have small variability in thrust that it can control, similar to air breathing engine, but it is small.
Onxy missile is equally capable of complex end game maneuvers look at intercept rate and that is 2024 data. wording is best downed with modern anti air defense. legacy cannot deal with it. this is before any update to Onyx. and Onyx are used in non saturated mode. the point i am making is propulsion does not matter with current high speed missiles.
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Commander-in-Chief of Armed Forces reveals how many military facilities in Ukraine were hit by Russian missiles​

Among the hostile missiles that are best downed with modern anti-air systems are the Kh-22s and Kh-32s, which are launched from Tu-22M3 bombers. A total of 362 of them were launched and 2 were shot down, or 0.55%. The Russians used 211 Onyx anti-ship missiles, of which 12 were shot down, which is 5.7%.
As for the hypersonic weapons, the Russians launched Kh-47M2 Kinzhal missiles 111 times, of which 28 were downed, i.e. 25%. These missiles were mostly targeted at civilian infrastructure, with only 15 military targets out of 83. The Zircon hypersonic missile was used only 6 times, shot down 2 times, and hit civilian targets 4 times.

R-37 is earliest operation example of an hypersonic missile. first target was destroyed in 1994 at over 300km. Su-57 is equipped with slightly longer range AAMs than MIG-31 and that is before 2026 update.
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MiG Victory: High-altitude interceptors will be trained to search for hypersonic targets.​

The fighters attacked from an altitude of almost 20,000 meters and at a speed 2.5 times the speed of sound. The target was destroyed at a distance of hundreds of kilometers. Starting this year, hypersonic target interception exercises will be held regularly, Izvestia sources reported. Since last year, MiG-31BMs have been practicing intercepting simulated ballistic missiles. These aircraft have been equipped with new R-74M missiles, capable of destroying various types of targets, including cruise missiles and drones. Their launch range is 40 km.

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He added that the Su-57 is already equipped with new long-range weapons, slightly surpassing the MiG-31 in this regard. In the future, the fighter may receive new guided missiles.
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Onxy missile is equally capable of complex end game maneuvers look at intercept rate and that is 2024 data. wording is best downed with modern anti air defense. legacy cannot deal with it. this is before any update to Onyx. and Onyx are used in non saturated mode. the point i am making is propulsion does not matter with current high speed missiles.


R-37 is earliest operation example of an hypersonic missile. first target was destroyed in 1994 at over 300km. Su-57 is equipped with slightly longer range AAMs than MIG-31 and that is before 2026 update.

Yes but Onyx only has a maximum speed of Mach 3. Even at Zircon slowest speed in the lower atmosphere, it is faster than onyx. Onyx is also described to be a cruise missile therefore I don’t know what the confusion is. Im trying to tell the difference that Zircon is not simply a ballistic missile. Ive heard Zircon is a cheaper, more capable alternative to Onyx.
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Presence of solid rocket motor fuel does not negate the possibility of an air breathing engine. Besides multistaging, solid rocket motor fuel could be packed inside the ramjet /scramjet combustion chamber. Like kh22 and meteor do it. I don't think there is enough hard evidence out there to make a final conclusion on whether zircon has or doesn't have an air breathing motor component.
It does not, but I’m telling you Zircon is not air breathing. That site was my more “public” reasoning why Zircon is not an air breather. I am not often so confident about things. But I am very sure Zircon is not air breathing.

This is not only confirmed by George, but is also stated from someone who has worked on the Tsirkon program. So you can either live in fantasy land that it is air breathing, or just trust my relaying of their statements.
 
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TMA1

New Member
Registered Member
It does not, but I’m telling you Zircon is not air breathing. That site was my more “public” reasoning why Zircon is not an air breather. I am not often so confident about things. But I am very sure Zircon is not air breathing.

This is not only confirmed by George, but is also stated from someone who has worked on the Tsirkon program. So you can either live in fantasy land that it is air breathing, or just trust my relaying of their statements.
You very well could be right but telling someone they live in fantasy land because of your educated guesses concerning a weapon system shrouded in massive secrecy is ridiculous. Based upon alleged cruise profile and speed I would still heavily lean towards air breathing or air augmenting, but I am no expert in this matter.

On a side note the propellant developed from the theories of this scientist would be awesome to fully uncover.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I am not saying it is or isn't, there is too little good data either way, that i've seen so far. If you are not in the mood for sharing your sources, that's fine too. I might take a look at them if you provide them, but worry not, i won't spend time on further discussion. Also not sure if "if you wanna live in fantasy land" rethoric is beneficial to this forum.
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
You very well could be right but telling someone they live in fantasy land because of your educated guesses concerning a weapon system shrouded in massive secrecy is ridiculous. Based upon alleged cruise profile and speed I would still heavily lean towards air breathing or air augmenting, but I am no expert in this matter.

On a side note the propellant developed from the theories of this scientist would be awesome to fully uncover.
I am not saying it is or isn't, there is too little good data either way, that i've seen so far. If you are not in the mood for sharing your sources, that's fine too. I might take a look at them if you provide them, but worry not, i won't spend time on further discussion. Also not sure if "if you wanna live in fantasy land" rethoric is beneficial to this forum.

How come on this forum when speaking of Chinese developments, simply name dropping is enough like Ayi says this, or Cute Orca said this and Yankeesama alluded to this is fine. But when I said George who works at UAC, knows someone who worked on the Tsirkon program said Tsirkon is a 3-stage rocket is not enough. "Just my educated guesses" No. This is not my educated guess. This is from people who know the In's of Russians military development.

Do I have to bring up the discord screenshots again? Aye they are going to dog on me. I just used the public report of the scientist being awarded for solid rocket fuel development for Zircon as my publicly available "proof"
 
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pmc

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes but Onyx only has a maximum speed of Mach 3. Even at Zircon slowest speed in the lower atmosphere, it is faster than onyx. Onyx is also described to be a cruise missile therefore I don’t know what the confusion is. Im trying to tell the difference that Zircon is not simply a ballistic missile. Ive heard Zircon is a cheaper, more capable alternative to Onyx.
that Mach 3 is original speed and range. I presume it was around 450km. 300km for export.
This is 2025 news. now they will not say what is exact range. its only speculation that it is 1000km. Even the oldest video the acceleration seem faster than any other missile except ABM tests.
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Positive results have been achieved in the modernization of the Onyx missiles.​


There are already results of this work, noted Alexander Leonov, General Designer of NPO Mashinostroeniya.
Reutov, Moscow Region
January 31, 2025, 4:13 AM
REUTOV /Moscow Region/. January 31. /TASS/. Positive results have been achieved in improving the Onyx supersonic ship- and shore-based missiles. Alexander Leonov, General Director and Chief Designer of NPO Mashinostroyenia, announced this to TASS during academic lectures on cosmonautics.

"We are certainly working on [improvements]. This applies to all of our systems that are in operation and in use. There have been positive results. Certain changes, modifications, and improvements are being made. This is mandatory work," he said, answering a question about the Onyx's range after modernization.

According to him, once a missile is accepted into service, changes to it require a whole procedure with the corresponding confirmations. "[The changes require] not even testing, but confirmations," Leonov noted. "Therefore, work is certainly underway. The results of this work are there."
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I wont speak for others but I personally don't like big shrimps' claims on chinese tech treated like gospel either.

I assume most info you talk about is stuff one can read over at secretforums cirkon thread, plus that claim by George. Certainly intriguing. but it wasn't enough for me. I am still hopefull more info will be revealed in due time.

If it IS just solid rocket motor fueled, maybe it would be some sort of throttleable motor? Which would be pretty advanced in itself? Or maybe it is just a series of regular rocket motor pulses. Who knows...
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wont speak for others but I personally don't like big shrimps' claims on chinese tech treated like gospel either.

I assume most info you talk about is stuff one can read over at secretforums cirkon thread, plus that claim by George. Certainly intriguing. but it wasn't enough for me. I am still hopefull more info will be revealed in due time.

If it IS just solid rocket motor fueled, maybe it would be some sort of throttleable motor? Which would be pretty advanced in itself? Or maybe it is just a series of regular rocket motor pulses. Who knows...
That is fair if you believe that. Non-official sources are the most difficult to confirm from. But if you will entertain, I've read that the solid sustainer motor has small windows of variable thrust. Take or not take that as you will.

Other things of note that's been said:
>Tsirkon is roughly as heavy or heavier than Onyx
>Most efficient cruise at 40-44km
>Flying a ballistic flight profile greatly increases range

These other things come across as making sense, i guess propulsion is just a heated topic.
 
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