Russia sells S-400 systems to China

The HUGE difference is that the SSMs do not threaten the normal air space over other nation's sovereign territory.

An S-400 would.

Whether it be Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, India, etc.

In an environment where the PRC is putting its best foot forward, and seeking to develop the trust and cooperation of nations around them, placing a system like this on the edge of their space so it immediately is a threat to the sovereign air space of these other nations, defeats the purpose and invites an escalation in kind all along is borders.

No...IMHO, better to establish the batteries where they can defend up to the edge of Chinese air space, supported by shorter range systems which do the same, thereby creating a defense in depth...all without threatening the sovereign air space of other nations.

Having them defend places like Beijing, critical military bases, R&D, critical infrastructure, etc. internal to the PRC is a given.

Jeff Head said:

The HUGE difference is that the SSMs do not threaten the normal air space over other nation's sovereign territory.

An S-400 would.

Whether it be Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, India, etc.

In an environment where the PRC is putting its best foot forward, and seeking to develop the trust and cooperation of nations around them, placing a system like this on the edge of their space so it immediately is a threat to the sovereign air space of these other nations, defeats the purpose and invites an escalation in kind all along is borders.

No...IMHO, better to establish the batteries where they can defend up to the edge of Chinese air space, supported by shorter range systems which do the same, thereby creating a defense in depth...all without threatening the sovereign air space of other nations.

Having them defend places like Beijing, critical military bases, R&D, critical infrastructure, etc. internal to the PRC is a given.

Click to expand...

No, those SSMs do not threaten the air space but they do threaten the actual sovereign territory itself. Including any and all Military/Civilian infrastructure and personnel on it. So still to my mind much more of a threat, already in place, than the addition of S400 to existing coastal ADS positions and the resulting extended coverage.

But as you say PRC is very mindful of public perception and S400 deployment would & will be a new event, so we will see where they land on this over time. If it were me however, considering the rhetoric already out there regarding China in this space, I would focus on my operational effectiveness first.

Zool said:

No, those SSMs do not threaten the air space but they do threaten the actual sovereign territory itself. Including any and all Military/Civilian infrastructure and personnel on it. So still to my mind much more of a threat, already in place, than the addition of S400.

Click to expand...

Yes...that is all true...but so do ICBMs even more so.

An anti-air systems capable of reaching over another nation's capitol and threatening their sovereignty in that manner is something that is more keenly felt.

Everyone knows that the offensive capability is out there...but it is not likely to ever be used unless there is all out war. And that is because the other nation has taken whatever measrures it can to defend against it . (Anti-missile defenses, dispersal, electronic warfare, etc.)

Having a defensive anti-aircraft system be put in a position to pose an offensive threat is a different animal that no one is going to be comfortable with and is much harder to defend against.

For these reasons, and the likely response in kind it would generate...I feel it would be foolhardy for the PRC to force an issue like this.

Heck, they could still use the S-400 to defend the ASMs. Just set them a little further back so their umbrella covered the ASM sites, but also did not intrude into the other's airspace.

After reading the insightful commentary on this matter, a few theories could be drawn.

The development of the HQ-26/19/29 seem to be focused on their anti-ballistic capabilities. The HQ-26 is rumored to be a counterpart of the SM3, the HQ-19 a counterpart of the THAAD, and the HQ-29 the PAC-3. None of these weapons, as it now seems, are geared towards aircraft. In fact, these systems are likely to be part of Beijing's multi-layered missile defense system rather than embark on an anti-aircraft role at all.

Despite the appearance of these systems, there is still a gap within the PLA's air-defense systems waiting to be filled. Thus, that is where the S-400 comes in.

Beijing seems to be more keen on developing her domestic anti-missile rather than SAM capability, or that CMPIEC/CASIC have been overbooked with contracts and projects.

Therefore, it would be quite erroneous to assume that the induction of the S-400 is due to a delay in the HQ-XX systems; rather, it is to fill a requirement to which their top brass cannot find a suitable domestic answer.

Jeff Head said:

No...IMHO, better to establish the batteries where they can defend up to the edge of Chinese air space, supported by shorter range systems which do the same, thereby creating a defense in depth...all without threatening the sovereign air space of other nations.

Click to expand...

If you limit yourself it makes more sense to go to the edge of the sovereign air space of other countries. That gives more depth to your defence.
And of course Taiwan doesn't have a sovereign air space.

When I read the headline I thought finally someone gets it that China is not buying the S-400 missile system. But then I read the article it talks about how the S-400 is going to be used and what version China might get.

I just can't shake the SCS bug on this issue.
I would love to see a map showing major Chinese Island building, with each Island overlain by the S-400 detection and targeting radius and see how well it delineates the Nine Dash line claim.

I really do think that this is a possession is 9/10ths situation and that the PRC is determined to change the facts on the ground in support of its claim. I also do think that a CSCADIZ is on the cards and that this one will be a rather more forceful affair than its ECS predecessor, due entirely to the matter of possession.
I really do see the S-400 system as a pivotal piece of the jigsaw to achieve and enforce this.

Much of the coverage and discourse about China getting the S-400 is full of China threat bias. Any SAM system a country has can possibly cover airspace over that country's neighbors.

Jeff Head said:

Yes...that is all true...but so do ICBMs even more so.

An anti-air systems capable of reaching over another nation's capitol and threatening their sovereignty in that manner is something that is more keenly felt.

Everyone knows that the offensive capability is out there...but it is not likely to ever be used unless there is all out war. And that is because the other nation has taken whatever measrures it can to defend against it . (Anti-missile defenses, dispersal, electronic warfare, etc.)

Having a defensive anti-aircraft system be put in a position to pose an offensive threat is a different animal that no one is going to be comfortable with and is much harder to defend against.

For these reasons, and the likely response in kind it would generate...I feel it would be foolhardy for the PRC to force an issue like this.

Heck, they could still use the S-400 to defend the ASMs. Just set them a little further back so their umbrella covered the ASM sites, but also did not intrude into the other's airspace.

Click to expand...

If that's the case then you might as well say US carriers should always stay at least as far away as its aircraft's and their munitions' range from other countries (who are not allies).

Franklin said:

When I read the headline I thought finally someone gets it that China is not buying the S-400 missile system. But then I read the article it talks about how the S-400 is going to be used and what version China might get.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

That's the only reasonable, non-China-threat, article regarding China's S-400 acquisition I have read so far.

Jeff Head said:

Thunder...I worked on this system.

It is definitely billed and funded for the purpose of ballistic missile defense...and that is its principle duty.

But...trust me when I tell you... those kinetic hit-to-kill warheads can and will intercept other targets if necessary, and they have the contingencies and capabilities to do so.

Here's a hint...remember, the THAAD system can accept cues from other systems including AN/TPY-2, AEGIS, Satellites, and others. I will not go into any more detail...but they certainly can intercept other targets.

Click to expand...

If they hit of course they could destroy aircraft . But they would first need to hit . As you know , the faster intercepting missile is, more g it has to pull to hit same ( maneuvering ) target like for example fighter jet . THAAD is very fast (over 8 Mach) , 48N6 is around 6 , other missiles for S-400 are slower . Even 48N6 is too fast to be very good in intercepting evasive fighter planes . At least it has warhead with HE , so it doesn't need to score direct hit .