Russia-Pakistan friendship group set up
- Thread starter FreeAsia2000
- Start date
wrong forum...
Pakistan had made the biggest mistake when at the time of independence then then Prime minister visited America on a NON-OFFICIAL visit to America.If he had gone to the then SOVIET UNION on a state visit as offered by the Russians ,we would never have been today in this mess.History has proven Russians are loyal and sincere friends as is evident in case of IRAN today for example.On the other hands Americans haev only their vested interests to consider.They left us helpless in the midst of a war several times.Americans should never be trusted for the defence needs of Pakistan.Russian aircarft are one of the best in the world.Its a welocme news for both countries as both have common interests .Russia needs to sell its defence inventory and Pakistan needs it.Russia has already offered to Pakistan helicoptes .I hope they would expand it to 4th generation fighters.I have always admired Russian current policies.LONG LIVE THIS FRIENDSHIP
Lets see Russia's friendship and loyalty:
1.) Invading a "friendly" Hungary after a popular revolt toppled the communist regime so it can reinstall a Communist government. This revolution was posponed for 35 years.
2.) The Soviet Union's "brotherly aid" to Afghanistan in order to preserve the communist regime's revolution, that lead to invasion. Afghanistan has yet to recover.
3.) Russia withheld vital ECM on the Egyptian Airforce that lead to their massacre in the hands of the IAF.
You are very naive. All coutries only have their vested interest in hand. That includes Russia and China.
Zahid
Junior Member
Sorry for the one-liner mods. Here is another try with a little more elaboration 
As the say: You fool me once, shame on you. You fool me twice, shame on me. If Pakistan again becomes dependent upon USA for all its defence needs then it has only itself to blame.
Even though USA have learned a lesson for dropping Pakistan like a hot potato after USSR exited afghanistan. I still think that engagement and co-operation with USA should be conducted at an arm's length.
There is a reason for deepening defense cooperation between China and Pakistan. There is a reason for FC1/JF17 project.
As the say: You fool me once, shame on you. You fool me twice, shame on me. If Pakistan again becomes dependent upon USA for all its defence needs then it has only itself to blame.
Even though USA have learned a lesson for dropping Pakistan like a hot potato after USSR exited afghanistan. I still think that engagement and co-operation with USA should be conducted at an arm's length.
There is a reason for deepening defense cooperation between China and Pakistan. There is a reason for FC1/JF17 project.
gentleman who called me naive .Attention plz!!!.I may be naive to u.But this is as I see the world .U ppl see russia and china as bullies while the ones that are sitting in ur backyard wrapped in the angle cloth of democracy.China and russia are becoming the key players int he world and i suppose this is wat troubles u.If this was not the reason .My apologies!!!but those invasions were 3-4 decades ago but these mistakes could be avoided .But looka at the US .Wat is ti doing?In the name of terrorism it hsa attacked afghanistan and iraq.Iraq had nothing to do with TERRORISM.u should not keep urself blindfolded.Look wat the policies od the west has done .thw world in a mess is today bcz of the INJUSTICE
Do you really think that China and Russia is helping arab and muslim countries in the middle east are due to the goodness of their heart? If you do then you are really naive. Let me spell it for you.
1.) Russia is a fallen superpower grasping to retain its former position and replaced its sphere of influence. It traditional sphere of influence is gone (eastern europe) being brought into the orbit of NATO. Now it looks southward and uses its UN veto power and arms shipments (the last remaining carrots it has that can remotely compete with the US on even terms) to carve out its sphere of influence.
2.) China is an up and coming superpower and is on its first baby steps establishing a sphere of influence away from its tradional area (East Asia). It uses its economic power to invest, in modest terms, to countries that have ZERO access to US markets due to sanctions. It is also trying to build up its arms industry and has developed a low-end niche to countries that cant' afford western or Russian weapons or are in risk of an embargo.
Now you may think this some sort of brotherhood and you will be wrong. In terms of international relations, countries have 2 options in a face of a single solitary hegemon: either bandwagon or balance.
Russia and China are trying to balance.
Violet Oboe
Junior Member
Although some of your points are quite valid dear IDont (e.g. of course Russia and China (as the US) are driven by their own best interest and not by voluntarism) you are forgetting about´the fallen superpower´s ´ Russia huge reserves of oil and gas. Without russian hydrocarbons the economy in western europe will come to a standstill in some weeks and european politicians like Chirac, Merkel, Prodi and even Blair know perfectly well that playing the smiling game in meetings with Mr. Putin is essential! Indeed Russia is an energy superpower already and provoking Moscow or even violating her interests will come at a high price literally.
The failure of US sponsored ´color revolutions´ in Kyrgystan (went wrong at the beginning, brought pro-russian Bakijev in control), Ukraine (Yushenko is a lame duck now dependent on pro-russian Yanukovich) and Uzbekistan (Karimov killed the orange baby in the crib) shows that Putin is rolling back US influence in the CIS swiftly.
As for the chinese they are playing their game in their own stealthy ways since they do not want to ring the alarm bells in Washington prematurely. Today Beijing is establishing a new zone of influence in Africa very rapidly and in a few years China will show her presence in Latin America and the Middle East as well. Consequently Pakistan is absolutely well advised in establishing a good strategic relationship with a resurgent Russia and deepening her traditional alliance with an ever more pivotal China.:coffee:
The failure of US sponsored ´color revolutions´ in Kyrgystan (went wrong at the beginning, brought pro-russian Bakijev in control), Ukraine (Yushenko is a lame duck now dependent on pro-russian Yanukovich) and Uzbekistan (Karimov killed the orange baby in the crib) shows that Putin is rolling back US influence in the CIS swiftly.
As for the chinese they are playing their game in their own stealthy ways since they do not want to ring the alarm bells in Washington prematurely. Today Beijing is establishing a new zone of influence in Africa very rapidly and in a few years China will show her presence in Latin America and the Middle East as well. Consequently Pakistan is absolutely well advised in establishing a good strategic relationship with a resurgent Russia and deepening her traditional alliance with an ever more pivotal China.:coffee:
The_Zergling
Junior Member
Good analysis by several posters above.
Another (albeit simplified yet realistic) way to put it would be that you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket. For example, if Pakistan only had friendly relations with China and then all of a sudden there's a brutal crackdown on political protestors in Tiananmen. Now this alliance doesn't seem so beneficial. Same goes for an alliance with only the US. One minute your "friend" is a (relatively) respected superpower, next minute it's lost all credibility by *cough* invading a country without justified cause.
Making good with both China and Russia is a smart tactic for Pakistan, especially considering that the formentioned countries are nuclear powers as well. Though it might be a stretch to say this because alliances generally all boil down to the bottom line, the fact that it is allied with them is a probable deterrence against a (hypothetical) US invasion, because in the past countries have used invasions against other countries as justification for declaring war against the aggressor. After all, what's to say that once country A is eliminated, country B won't be on the chopping block?
In addition, the fact that China would have an increasing presence in vital shipping lanes in Southeast Asia is something that Pakistani leaders have no doubt considered.
Another (albeit simplified yet realistic) way to put it would be that you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket. For example, if Pakistan only had friendly relations with China and then all of a sudden there's a brutal crackdown on political protestors in Tiananmen. Now this alliance doesn't seem so beneficial. Same goes for an alliance with only the US. One minute your "friend" is a (relatively) respected superpower, next minute it's lost all credibility by *cough* invading a country without justified cause.
Making good with both China and Russia is a smart tactic for Pakistan, especially considering that the formentioned countries are nuclear powers as well. Though it might be a stretch to say this because alliances generally all boil down to the bottom line, the fact that it is allied with them is a probable deterrence against a (hypothetical) US invasion, because in the past countries have used invasions against other countries as justification for declaring war against the aggressor. After all, what's to say that once country A is eliminated, country B won't be on the chopping block?
In addition, the fact that China would have an increasing presence in vital shipping lanes in Southeast Asia is something that Pakistani leaders have no doubt considered.
Zergling and Violet you have some good points and seem to have a firm grasp on how things work in international relations. Violet, you are right, I forgot the natural gas exports of Russia to Europe.
What I was answering to was Asad Sha's comment that: History has proven Russians are loyal and sincere friends as is evident in case of IRAN today for example. On the other hands Americans haev only their vested interests to consider.
This is a pretty broad statement and, in my opinion, very naive. I am not trying to make some generalizations but many Pakistani posters on other boards tend to "overinflate" Pakistan's "alliance" with China and now Russia, in Asad's case. There is just no basis for such an alliance other than for convenience. Pakistan is an Urdu speaking Muslim state while Russia is Slavic and China is well Chinese. Economic trade between the two are minimal vis-a -vie their trade to the West. SO what am I missing here? Why do I Pakistani posters always inflate such ties?
Here are some other examples: (Note this is no way an attack on Pakistan)
1.) Over emphasis on Gwadar port as a Chinese base.
2.) Over emphasis on the JF-17 development ties as proof of deep "brotherhood" (Pakistani money + Chinese know how and money + Russian Engines) The PLAAF is not even clear if they are buying this aircraft.
What I was answering to was Asad Sha's comment that: History has proven Russians are loyal and sincere friends as is evident in case of IRAN today for example. On the other hands Americans haev only their vested interests to consider.
This is a pretty broad statement and, in my opinion, very naive. I am not trying to make some generalizations but many Pakistani posters on other boards tend to "overinflate" Pakistan's "alliance" with China and now Russia, in Asad's case. There is just no basis for such an alliance other than for convenience. Pakistan is an Urdu speaking Muslim state while Russia is Slavic and China is well Chinese. Economic trade between the two are minimal vis-a -vie their trade to the West. SO what am I missing here? Why do I Pakistani posters always inflate such ties?
Here are some other examples: (Note this is no way an attack on Pakistan)
1.) Over emphasis on Gwadar port as a Chinese base.
2.) Over emphasis on the JF-17 development ties as proof of deep "brotherhood" (Pakistani money + Chinese know how and money + Russian Engines) The PLAAF is not even clear if they are buying this aircraft.