Rome vs Han China

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crobato

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The Parthians we are talking about (fighting the Romans) are what were the earlier Persians and later Sassanids. Their 'overlords' might have Parthian-Scythian ancestors, but they were no longer nomads (sort of like post-Mongol China, I guess).

Not sure where you got your information from, but Persians and Medes were certainly not mainly infantry armies. They probably had a far higher percentage of cavalry in their armies than did the Han, escpecially the Medes.
Medes and Perians did not use chariots (unless you mean the scythed ones used as 'battering ram' by Persians). Assyrians used chariots as did early Chinese or anybody else around that time, then replaced them with cavalry, both bow and spear armed.

Sorry but neither does the Medes or the Persians live off horses and bows like the Huns did, which they grew up with since childhood. The Han cavalry are made up of Huns and nomadic steepe people who have joined the Han side, hence not only have these people grown up living on horses, they are both mercenary and professional in nature.


This is getting off topic, but experiments with light chariots showed that they were very maneuvrable indeed and very stable firing platforms. They also could carry vast amounts of arrows and were not as dependent on flat terrain as we might think. So overall much better than any kind of horse archers in a battle. The reason they dissappeared has more to do with their cost. Heavier chariots were of course less nimble, but they had a different job, just as later cataphract or knight cavalry was not meant to be nimble.

BJ

Only on flat terrain. With a solid axle, a chariot cannot maintain steadiness in fast turns or bumpier terrian. This is not to mention that logically they are expensive to maintain, needed to constantly replace the axles and the wheels.

The Warring States period showed the inferiority of the chariots against pure cavalry. The ancient Chinese armies started with a lot of chariots, which as you know, acts different roles in the battlefield from symbol of leadership, to observation platform, to fire support platform. As some of the Chinese states started to engage the Hun, the concept of pure cavalry army began to be implemented, proving outright superior to the chariots. One of the advantages of the winning Qin army, is that they came from the west side, and so they had many horse riders with them.
 

crobato

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Actually a shas bene shown repeatedly, Rome went where Rome wanted, although sometimes she couldn't stay there. The Han on the other might have decided to stop deciding everythign past a certain point wasnt Chinese, or they may have looked at the Gobi and the stans and the fierce residents and deicded any attempt to extend thier influence would be suicide

No the Han did not give up. The Han did send emissaries and expeditions to look for the Romans, or whoever was buying their silk bolts. The Parthians, always the wiser, did everything to keep their trade secrets, that they literally sent those Han emissaries into a wild goose chase in wrong directions (if they were not conveniently murdered). I bet they probably did the same with the Romans searching for Serenica (wild goose chase or get murdered). The Parthians did everything to maintain their middleman status in the silk trade and won't hesistate to kill for that too. But there seemed to be records in both Roman and Chinese courts about the arrival of such travellers, showing maybe that some survived. The Romans called these people Seres.

"The Seres are famous for the woolen substance obtained from their forests; after a soaking in water they comb off the white down of the leaves… So manifold is the labour employed, and so distant is the region of the globe drawn upon, to enable the Roman maiden to flaunt transparent clothing in public”--Pliny the Elder (23–79)

As for the fierce residents, they were certainly more than pacified; the Han had no qualms decimating entire tribes just to prove this point.

For what its worth, the Silk Road transformed a barren grassy wasteland of tribal nomads into a gateway of culturally rich and thriving kingdoms.
 

Finn McCool

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I'm not going to post on this tread anymore, but my final arguments are:
1. the Bysantine army was more advanced than the Roman one from ~1.5K years before, when it was finaly defeated in the
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Man they should make a movie about the fall fo Constantinople. It's movie worthy. Considering how much the odds were stacked against the defenders its is amazing they resisted as well as they did. It really is an Alamo type situation. They must have known the significance of the battle while they were fighting it.
 

BeeJay

New Member
Sorry but neither does the Medes or the Persians live off horses and bows like the Huns did, which they grew up with since childhood. The Han cavalry are made up of Huns and nomadic steepe people who have joined the Han side, hence not only have these people grown up living on horses, they are both mercenary and professional in nature.
Not sure why you mention this. Medes and Persian cavalry were no less proficient in their own roles as any other, for example like European knights or Hun archers for that matter.
Btw, a mercenary is a professional, but a professional does not need to be a mercenary. Mercenaries tend to give up quicker when things get too hot.

Only on flat terrain. With a solid axle, a chariot cannot maintain steadiness in fast turns or bumpier terrian.

According to those experiments they had no problems with bumpy terrain. Besides, flat only does not fit history: everybody used chariots, everywhere ... flat terrain or not.
One more thing, cavalry is just as much confined to gentle terrain: nothing better to break up a cavalry formation then to lure it into soft, gully-ed, uneven or pitted terrain.

Like I said, it was for economical reasons that chariots stopped being used. Also, if your army is more irregular (you know, like champions fighting each other etc rather than as disciplined, coordinated groups), chariots of course are worse than cavalry, who can come between individual chariots. Maybe that is the reason why they dissappeared in China?

Anyway, interesting topic, but not Roman-Han.

BJ
 

BeeJay

New Member
Man they should make a movie about the fall fo Constantinople. It's movie worthy. Considering how much the odds were stacked against the defenders its is amazing they resisted as well as they did. It really is an Alamo type situation. They must have known the significance of the battle while they were fighting it.

Other greats for movies: Acre, Rhodes, or even better: Malta, because there the defenders held out (9 000 vs 60 000).

BJ
 

darkfishwang

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Chariots is not useful as you think .Chinese armies had abandoned Chariots after BC 340 in Zhao Kingdom(a seigneur of Zhou Dynasty).Chariots only adapt to large plain what confined its development.Chariots have the advantage to cavalries,but it need smooth terrain.You cann't imagine where you would meet you enemy.

None of the nomade nations dared to challenge Han emissaries on the Silk Road.

Emperor Liu Che commanded that who had attacked Han emissaries and whom would be destroyed.Qiang and Da Wan nomade nations nearby the Silk Road had been defeated because they discouraged Han emissaries on the Silk Road .

So Han decided to stop conquering other nomade nations since Han is a agriculture country.Han emperors thought that Grassland was useless.


Nomade nations also loved chinese silk what brought them treasure.

Rome emperor Antonius,Marcus had sent his emissaries to Han in D.C. 166 and they arrived China.
 

darkfishwang

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Hun didn't dared to kill Han emissaries even Han deafeated them so hard.There was a rule in Han Dynasty.Han armies would destroy nations completely who dared to kill Han emissaries.
 

crobato

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Not sure why you mention this. Medes and Persian cavalry were no less proficient in their own roles as any other, for example like European knights or Hun archers for that matter.

None of them lived on their arrows like the Huns did. With the Huns, if you don't learn to shoot straight even when you're a kid, you don't get to hunt to eat.

Btw, a mercenary is a professional, but a professional does not need to be a mercenary. Mercenaries tend to give up quicker when things get too hot.

They are also much more survivable for that reason. 10 year service in the Roman army? How many actually survive past two years? Given the death rates expected, the Roman army should have as much noobs in their army composition as the Hans did.

According to those experiments they had no problems with bumpy terrain

Experiments? The chariot armies quickly got their asses kicked. At the end of Warring States period, chariots were more ceremonial than useful.

. Besides, flat only does not fit history: everybody used chariots, everywhere ... flat terrain or not.

The fact remains, everywhere around the world, once the mounted horsemen came, the cavalry went out.

One more thing, cavalry is just as much confined to gentle terrain: nothing better to break up a cavalry formation then to lure it into soft, gully-ed, uneven or pitted terrain.

Which is why a joint force works best. The Han or just simply, the Chinese Empire, works like this. As a matter of fact, read the Art of War carefully, the ancient Chinese were masters of using local terrain. The kingdoms in the east and the south often use their terrain at best to negate the cavalry advantages of the kingdoms from the north and the west.

Like I said, it was for economical reasons that chariots stopped being used. Also, if your army is more irregular (you know, like champions fighting each other etc rather than as disciplined, coordinated groups), chariots of course are worse than cavalry, who can come between individual chariots. Maybe that is the reason why they dissappeared in China?

Anyway, interesting topic, but not Roman-Han.

BJ

Horse is still more versatile across a variety of terrain compared to the chariot. Anything less than flat on the chariot, and its got major handling problems.
 

zraver

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They are also much more survivable for that reason. 10 year service in the Roman army? How many actually survive past two years? Given the death rates expected, the Roman army should have as much noobs in their army composition as the Hans did.

Roman training was almsot 2 years long. The high average leangth of service and amount of land hande dout prove the Romans did not suffer the types of losse syou would like them to. You keep fixating on a few memorable defeats over the course an empire thats lasted for centuries.

Which is why a joint force works best. The Han or just simply, the Chinese Empire, works like this. As a matter of fact, read the Art of War carefully, the ancient Chinese were masters of using local terrain. The kingdoms in the east and the south often use their terrain at best to negate the cavalry advantages of the kingdoms from the north and the west.

Rome was also a combined arms force, why can't don't see that. Sure they traded some mounted mobility, but gained shock power, lower logistics, and the funds freed up went into armor and equipment.

No the Han did not give up. The Han did send emissaries and expeditions to look for the Romans, or whoever was buying their silk bolts. The Parthians, always the wiser, did everything to keep their trade secrets, that they literally sent those Han emissaries into a wild goose chase in wrong directions (if they were not conveniently murdered). I bet they probably did the same with the Romans searching for Serenica (wild goose chase or get murdered). The Parthians did everything to maintain their middleman status in the silk trade and won't hesistate to kill for that too. But there seemed to be records in both Roman and Chinese courts about the arrival of such travellers, showing maybe that some survived. The Romans called these people Seres.

After Chang Ch'ien's trip to the west, the regular traffic began along the Silk Road, on which goods - above all China's silk - were carried across Asia, finally reaching the Roman Empire. Passing through land controlled by the Chinese, the Kushans, the Parthians, and the Romans, the goods were transferred from the caravans of one people to those of another, so that no single individual normally made the entire journey.

As a result, neither the Roman nor the Chinese knew much about the other, and although the Romans loved silk, they asserted that the material grew on tree. By the second half of the 1st century, the Han's general Pan Chao stabilized the Tarim basin region and chased out the Xiongnu who fought to control the trade route in the area. In 97 he decided to directly contact Da Chi'en (Roman Empire) by sending an ambassdor, Kan Ying, to Rome. Therefore Kan Ying set off to the west along the Silk Road with elaborate gifts. He got as far as Mesopotamia. He intended to take ship for Rome but when he was told that the journey would take up to two years, he gave up and returned home. The unfortunate Kan Ying was misinformed about the time by the Parthians, who feared any contact between China and Rome might interfere with their profitable role as middlemen.

The first direct contact between Rome and China didn't happen until the second century after Rome Empire defeated Parthia and controlled the Persian Gulf. In 166 the first Roman envoy was sent by Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, from the Persian Gulf and successfully arrived China.

Sorry but neither does the Medes or the Persians live off horses and bows like the Huns did, which they grew up with since childhood. The Han cavalry are made up of Huns and nomadic steepe people who have joined the Han side, hence not only have these people grown up living on horses, they are both mercenary and professional in nature.

The Romans also recruited steepe horsemen and the Hunnisha d mongol proto tribe sin service to the Han lost mos tof thier mobility when they lost thier remuda's and were never allowed to concentrate in large numbers for fear or revolt. Also will you please show how nomads forcefully tied to a section o fthe earth can maintian their horse skills?

I kind of doubt that slingers outrange bows, certainly won't have the same level of accuracy.

You can doubt it all you want but the ancient accounts leave little room for your doubts. Unlike Han arrows which had a long shaft, flecthing, and a big broadhead all inducing drag the sling bullet was lead and ballistically shaped or flat skipping type river stone.
 

crobato

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Roman training was almsot 2 years long. The high average leangth of service and amount of land hande dout prove the Romans did not suffer the types of losse syou would like them to. You keep fixating on a few memorable defeats over the course an empire thats lasted for centuries.

And yet eventually they in the long run adopted a conscript army? That does not sound like they are able to keep up with their casualty rate. Conscription is usually the inevitable result if you got lose too many professionals in battle. By the way, don't underestimate what a conscript army can do. The Allies won a world war with such.

The Romans also recruited steepe horsemen and the Hunnisha d mongol proto tribe sin service to the Han lost mos tof thier mobility when they lost thier remuda's and were never allowed to concentrate in large numbers for fear or revolt. Also will you please show how nomads forcefully tied to a section o fthe earth can maintian their horse skills?

And which ones did they recruit?

How did they lose their remudas? The Han instituted a massive breeding program to keep more than enough horses for their cavalry. The Han had no problem with cavalry units as big as 50,000 to 100,000. As for loyalties, the Hun that worked for the Han pretty much moved their families into Han territory. As usual, the Han often rewarded disloyalty not just executing the person involved, but their entire family.

You can doubt it all you want but the ancient accounts leave little room for your doubts. Unlike Han arrows which had a long shaft, flecthing, and a big broadhead all inducing drag the sling bullet was lead and ballistically shaped or flat skipping type river stone.

Which skipping stone can you throw for over a hundred meters by the way? Han arrows don't seem to have any problems hitting that far. Crossbows go up to 300 meters. Lead balls ballistically shaped? When did that ever happen. There is a reason why guns with lead balls don't have the range or even the penetration power of arrows.

Now it does appear that the Hans and all the ancient Chinese did after all have shields, not just leather ones, but made out of rhino hide (before they were extinct in the region), sometime reinforced with rattan or bamboo. Apparently they also have large metal ones. Only because the wooden shields in the Terra Cotta army rotted, but now it looks like there is stone replicas of shields.
 
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