Rome vs Han China

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InsertName

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Oh, some evidence suggests that Ma Chao may've used Roman style tactics? By God, the man must've been Roman! Please. Do you think the whole 'softening up your enemies with ranged weapons' was a tactic used only by the Romans? C'mon.

Although, guys, it's possible that there were Roman descendants in China, although they'd be a mix between Chinese and Romans of course. Remember the one Emperor's expedition into Parthia? Something like a hundred or so legionaries were never accounted for back at Rome? Then a Chinese general reported facing 'blonde haired, blue eyed barbarians with peculiar armor and short swords as well as tall shields' or something. These men were, for the most part, captured and the Chinese even built a village for them. I forget the name of it, but someone on here mentioned it along with the info. I'm too lazy to look it up, though. I forget what time period that is, but still, I doubt Ma Chao of all people would be Roman.
 
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FreeAsia2000

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InsertName said:
Oh, some evidence suggests that Ma Chao may've used Roman style tactics? By God, the man must've been Roman! Please. Do you think the whole 'softening up your enemies with ranged weapons' was a tactic used only by the Romans? C'mon.

Although, guys, it's possible that there were Roman descendants in China, although they'd be a mix between Chinese and Romans of course. Remember the one Emperor's expedition into Parthia? Something like a hundred or so legionaries were never accounted for back at Rome? Then a Chinese general reported facing 'blonde haired, blue eyed barbarians with peculiar armor and short swords as well as tall shields' or something. These men were, for the most part, captured and the Chinese even built a village for them. I forget the name of it, but someone on here mentioned it along with the info. I'm too lazy to look it up, though. I forget what time period that is, but still, I doubt Ma Chao of all people would be Roman.
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Totally agree with your statements.

I find it odd that certain euro-centric people go into orgasms whenever they discover that some figure in East Asia had BLOND hair and BLUE eyes.

Wow. Unbelievable. He MUST HAVE BEEN nordic....

Guys something like 5 % of the population of northern pakistan and afghanistan has blond hair and blue eyes..not to mention central asia is populated by the descendents of the Tokharii...who WERE not from europe but were the descendents of middle eastern 'Celts' (if there is such a thing)

heck the first Muslim ruler Abu Bakr (ra) had blue eyes and the third Uthman (ra) had blond hair.

Why is there some assumption that Ma Chao was a Roman ? I thought Ma meant 'horse' ? Isn't it more likely he was the descendent of Central Asian
tribes ?
 
Gollevainen

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Once again, this thread is in the edge of falling down...

lets not drif to commenting and denigration of different national charasters. If the issue is about happenings 2000 years ago, there is absolutly no room for start fighting over some "facts" One more intervention from moderators and this thread is permanetly closed.

Gollevainen
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InsertName

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*attempts to revive the thread*

Lets review...

The two empires (The Han and the Roman empires, obviously) would be facing off in something like 50 BC - 0 AD, something like that, give or take a few years. The Han would have a ready force of 2 million men with the ability to draft a lot more, while the Romans have 500,000, only half of which are professional legionaries. We've concluded that the Han crossbows can penetrate the Roman tower shields quite effectively, although it's doubtful whether or not they'd still be fatal when they hit the soldier behind the shield itself. We've also established that the Han had a variety of troops at their disposal, as opposed to the one-dimensional roman legion which focuses mostly on infantry with the occasional light-to-medium cavalry unit. It's unlikely that a Roman legion would break formation to charge across the ground towards the Chinese troops, because that would put them at greater risk. Their power is in their tightly packed troop formation. However, if they try and march or even jog in such a formation, they'll make easy targets for the Han crossbows. If they form the tetsudo formation, they'll still be relatively easy targets, and many would be, at the very least, wounded before they reach the lines of combat. We've also established that the Chinese would've relied heavily on psychological warfare and tactics by this time, as they seem to enjoy doing. Chances are, in other words, they have a trick up their sleeve that the Romans, who're used to straight-out combat in the field (just look at Vargus and his legions... how could you not anticipate an ambush in a forest like that?!), wouldn't really be prepared for. We've also learned that the Chinese have superior metalurgy than the Romans, so their blades and armor would be stronger and lighter than the Roman weapons. This is also leaving out the fact that Chinese have mail armor, seeing as we can't agree on whether or not it would be common at the end of BC, start of AD period. So far, things don't look so good for the Romans, eh? Well, anyways, lets continue our debate based on that information, shall we?
 
crobato

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There are certainly Caucasians in ancient China. There are even genetic markers in the DNA of Chinese people that even support ancestral Caucasians among northwestern Han. Chinese people have been observed to suffer congenital diseases like Buscet's which are only found in Europeans but not in other Asians.

But I doubt these are Roman. Much more likely these are Central Asians and Arabs coming into China from the northwest. Indo Europeans like the Tocharians who first came to China---in fact helped introduce Buddism---and then who later became extinct, probably assimilated into northwestern Han in the long run. Others are Silk route traders and the trade route lasted for hundreds of years. And even after that, Arabs came to China via boat to trade and vice versa. There were even Jewish settlments in Chang'an (Xian) during the Tang Dynasty and in the Kaifeng city during the Sung Dynasty. Nestorian Christians first introduced Christianity in China during the Tang period, centuries before the Jesuits came. The popular image of the Virgin Mary they brought got eventually mixed with one of the Buddist Boddhisattvas to become the goddess Guan-yin, which even spread to Japan to become the goddess Kan-non.

China, Chinese and Chinese civilization isn't one developed from isolation. That's a popular myth. To the contrary, China was probably one of the most open civilizations in the world. A city like Chang'an is comparable to the modern Hong Kong today, truly global. There were Indians, there were Jews, there were Arabs, there were Nestorians, there were Tocharians in such numbers in Chang'an they even have seperate districts, e.g. like an Arab town.
 
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FreeAsia2000

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crobato said:
There are certainly Caucasians in ancient China. There are even genetic markers in the DNA of Chinese people that even support ancestral Caucasians among northwestern Han. Chinese people have been observed to suffer congenital diseases like Buscet's which are only found in Europeans but not in other Asians.

But I doubt these are Roman. Much more likely these are Central Asians and Arabs coming into China from the northwest. Indo Europeans like the Tocharians who first came to China---in fact helped introduce Buddism---and then who later became extinct, probably assimilated into northwestern Han in the long run. Others are Silk route traders and the trade route lasted for hundreds of years. And even after that, Arabs came to China via boat to trade and vice versa. There were even Jewish settlments in Chang'an (Xian) during the Tang Dynasty and in the Kaifeng city during the Sung Dynasty. Nestorian Christians first introduced Christianity in China during the Tang period, centuries before the Jesuits came. The popular image of the Virgin Mary they brought got eventually mixed with one of the Buddist Boddhisattvas to become the goddess Guan-yin, which even spread to Japan to become the goddess Kan-non.

China, Chinese and Chinese civilization isn't one developed from isolation. That's a popular myth. To the contrary, China was probably one of the most open civilizations in the world. A city like Chang'an is comparable to the modern Hong Kong today, truly global. There were Indians, there were Jews, there were Arabs, there were Nestorians, there were Tocharians in such numbers in Chang'an they even have seperate districts, e.g. like an Arab town.
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Agree with the above however the Tokharians didn't become extinct they
sought sanctuary with the Pashtun tribes in afghanistan/pakistan and were assimilated :)
and that's family history by the way
 
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adeptitus

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crobato said:
The popular image of the Virgin Mary they brought got eventually mixed with one of the Buddist Boddhisattvas to become the goddess Guan-yin, which even spread to Japan to become the goddess Kan-non.
Click to expand...

O.O Now that's a can of worms.

Some Buddhists would say that it's the other way around. In Japan, when Christians were banned from practicing their religion, they disguised the image of Virgin Mary as the Goddess Kannon ("Maria Kannon") or various Shinto deities. They evolved into the Kakure Krishitans (hidden Christians) and Hanare Kristians (seperated Christians) over the next 300 years. This resulted in the syncretism of Catholism, Buddhism, Shinto, and ancestral worship. Many present-day Japanese religions/cults/beliefs reflect this fusion.
 
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IDonT

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InsertName said:
*attempts to revive the thread*

Lets review...

The two empires (The Han and the Roman empires, obviously) would be facing off in something like 50 BC - 0 AD, something like that, give or take a few years. The Han would have a ready force of 2 million men with the ability to draft a lot more, while the Romans have 500,000, only half of which are professional legionaries. We've concluded that the Han crossbows can penetrate the Roman tower shields quite effectively, although it's doubtful whether or not they'd still be fatal when they hit the soldier behind the shield itself. We've also established that the Han had a variety of troops at their disposal, as opposed to the one-dimensional roman legion which focuses mostly on infantry with the occasional light-to-medium cavalry unit. It's unlikely that a Roman legion would break formation to charge across the ground towards the Chinese troops, because that would put them at greater risk. Their power is in their tightly packed troop formation. However, if they try and march or even jog in such a formation, they'll make easy targets for the Han crossbows. If they form the tetsudo formation, they'll still be relatively easy targets, and many would be, at the very least, wounded before they reach the lines of combat. We've also established that the Chinese would've relied heavily on psychological warfare and tactics by this time, as they seem to enjoy doing. Chances are, in other words, they have a trick up their sleeve that the Romans, who're used to straight-out combat in the field (just look at Vargus and his legions... how could you not anticipate an ambush in a forest like that?!), wouldn't really be prepared for. We've also learned that the Chinese have superior metalurgy than the Romans, so their blades and armor would be stronger and lighter than the Roman weapons. This is also leaving out the fact that Chinese have mail armor, seeing as we can't agree on whether or not it would be common at the end of BC, start of AD period. So far, things don't look so good for the Romans, eh? Well, anyways, lets continue our debate based on that information, shall we?
Click to expand...

I still stick to my point.
If Napoleonic era, US Civil War and Crimean War era soldiers can do an infantry charge underfire (from musket and artillery), retain formation, and close succesfully with the enemy, I don't see why the Roman Legions can't underfire from crossbows. Although I acquiest that casualties will be a lot during the charge.

The main problem facing the Romans is the Han Cavalry.

There are certainly Caucasians in ancient China. There are even genetic markers in the DNA of Chinese people that even support ancestral Caucasians among northwestern Han. Chinese people have been observed to suffer congenital diseases like Buscet's which are only found in Europeans but not in other Asians.
Click to expand...

Those caucasians are probably Eurasian Steppe Nomads. I mean parts of Eastern Europe have Asian DNA from various Asian nomads (huns, mongols, etc)
 
crobato

crobato

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adeptitus said:
O.O Now that's a can of worms.

Some Buddhists would say that it's the other way around. In Japan, when Christians were banned from practicing their religion, they disguised the image of Virgin Mary as the Goddess Kannon ("Maria Kannon") or various Shinto deities. They evolved into the Kakure Krishitans (hidden Christians) and Hanare Kristians (seperated Christians) over the next 300 years. This resulted in the syncretism of Catholism, Buddhism, Shinto, and ancestral worship. Many present-day Japanese religions/cults/beliefs reflect this fusion.
Click to expand...

Well, the Guanyin took on a feminine appearance long before that, having already been so in the Sung dynasty, long before there were Christians in Japan. As I said, there were Christians in the Tang capital of Chang'an.

The Japanese Christians literally took the feminine image of Kannon and hid a cross in it to make Maria Kannon. Kannon itself arrived in Japan long long before that happened.
 
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