ROCAF record

Sendoh

Sendoh

New Member
Registered Member
In any future ROCAF vs PLAAF engagement, both sides will be pitted in an intense struggle...probably down to their last aircrafts...BUT both the record of the ROCAF and the PLAAF are quite questionable...would people give me an idea of any past engagements or body count of downed PLAAF or ROCAF pilots....

i only found one useful link
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TO MODS...please dont move this to military history section...not many people respond there...
 
X

xihaoli

New Member
Hmm.....no offence but i seriously doubt that source of yours. TaiwanAirPower.com? come on.....

A good site that I use for database info on A2A victories is

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Although the site may lack accuracy and a bibliography, it sure is convenient.

In numbers of A2A kills, as in aircraft vs aircraft, excluding ground based sams and recon drones, the Rocaf holdes a clear lead over the Plaaf. However, it should be remeber that during the 1959's, sidewinder equipt f-86's inclicted heavy loses on the Plaaf mig-17s. This was quite a predictable result, seeing as how the Pla pilots had absolutely no strategical or psychological preperation for such a weapon. By the time that China had gotten the Attols, the series of air engagements was over.

In light of current aircraft inventories and experience, I would say that both sides are about equal, seeing as how its f-16s, which has a remarkable record for shooting down mig-21s and 29s, to su-27s, which also has a remarkable reputation for shooting down mig 21s and mig 29s. The booast that Rocaf get up to 300 hours of flight time per year on f-16s is also bs, due both to engine run time/resupplies, and that fact that not even the USNAF, the most overly funded airforce in the world, get that much.

Here is a link to the Su-27s 0:7 kill ratio agunist mig29s

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Has quite a big a catching up to do with its counterpart the f-15 don't you think.......
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Sendoh said:
In any future ROCAF vs PLAAF engagement, both sides will be pitted in an intense struggle...probably down to their last aircrafts...BUT both the record of the ROCAF and the PLAAF are quite questionable...would people give me an idea of any past engagements or body count of downed PLAAF or ROCAF pilots....
i only found one useful link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

TO MODS...please dont move this to military history section...not many people respond there...
Click to expand...

ROCAF claim:
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PLAAF claim:
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ROCAF vs. PLAAF article:
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The ROCAF and PLAAF have not engaged each other since 1967. Whatever combat record they had back then is mostly irrevelent to today. In the past ROCAF could claim superior training, but these days I suspect the front line PLAAF fighter pilots are getting just as much training as their ROCAF counterparts.
 
O

ordinary dude

New Member
You also have to consider morale of the ROCAF polits, are they committed to a life or death struggle with the PLAAF.

PLAAF will most likely send in massive waves of planes, so the first ROCAF planes will surely run out of ammo before they run out of targets. the numerical superiority is way out of line for the two sides to have a real fight.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Numerical superiority is difficult to sustain against a small "boxed" airspace. Remember the losses the Luftwaffe took at Malta. Everything has to fly across a gauntlet and the ROCAF only has to defend that gauntlet. Furthermore, many PLAAF aircraft lack the range to reach Taiwan from their home bases. Planes like the J-8II and J-7s would have to be relocated to make shift bases in Fujian, Zhejiang and Guandong in order to bring them to reach over Taiwan. So you need to put that logistical infrastructure to support that many planes. Then you must have sufficient air and mission management assets to control all that air traffic.

It will be like attacking an aircraft carrier that can't be sunk.

It is very difficult to win a pure air to air battle against the ROCAF. It has one of the most powerful airforces in the region---heck even both the ROKAF and the JASDF will be bloodied badly against the ROCAF. The reason for this is that they have a very large number of aircraft, over 330 planes, that is capable of launching ARH missiles. These missiles include the AIM-120C, which is the latest slammer version, the MICA and the TC-2 used on the IDF. Even with J-11s, Su-30s, J-10s and upgraded J-8IIs supported by AWACS, the PLAAF does not have a clear cut superiority. Though I would say you would be left with one glorious air battle that people will be talking about in the history book for ages.

The PLAAF is not going to send massive waves of planes. Rather, several hundred SSMs will come crashing down on the few dozen ROCAF airbases, of which around eight is majorly important, and against all ROCAF static sites like communications. What ever survived the missile onslaught might be attacked by a second wave of cruise missiles, then followed by waves of strike aircraft and their escorts that will bust bunkers and suppress SAMs. That will leave survivors to be picked off with the incoming waves. It would be better if the PLAAF/PLANAF has more Su-30s and JH-7s for the strike and air defense supporession role but they don't, considering that the PLANAF Su-30s and JH-7s would have to be sinking the ROCN, which divides the force even further.

The PLAAF for me still lacks sufficient A2G punch to follow up on the initial SSM attack to make good a clear victory over the ROCAF on the ground. If the PLAAF had chosen things like Zhemchug radar for the J-10 and J-8IIs, the SKM upgrade for the J-11s, the PLAAF would have gained much better multirole A2G capability in the short term, but going with indigineous systems instead, the PLAAF choose to bid for the long term.
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I was playing with google earth the other day and was surprised how much of taiwan was covered in high resolution maps. Sure, most of those are a year old or even bit more but it still paints a decent picture of the situation. And the thing that surprised me even more is how relatively unprotected those airplanes in those airbases are! Except for the one in the mountain in the southeast corner of the island (which is also kinda strage - 8 entrances/exists from the mountain to just one runway??) all the other bases had really inadequate numbers of hardened shelters for the planes. At best, they would walls of dug up earth erected around the parked planes. Still, even those do not add to great numbers. To me it seemed that more than half the planes would just sit on the tarmac, with no protection.

A first strike with ballistic and cruise missiles does seem to be pretty damaging, more so than i initially thought. Of course, important thing is element of surprise. If needed, i would not even begin to relocate the far away based chinese planes closer to taiwan, in order not to alert the taiwanese, before i launch the missile strike.
 
V

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
The problem is, since the Korean War and First and Second Taiwan Straits Crises, there hasn't been a real test for China. Taiwan has been in the same boat, but now the problem is bigger. The veterans of the Chinese Civil War are either dead or no longer the factor they once were. Taiwan is no relying on its own training ability. Taiwanese modernization has consistently been BEHIND China in technology. China had acquired the Flankers in 1992, two years later the IDF entered service with the ROCAF.

This has been going on a while. Taiwan used to be ahead, but that's been reversed. China is growing in training, technology, and numbers, there really is no argument as to what the eventual outcome is.
 
D

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
xihaoli said:
Hmm.....no offence but i seriously doubt that source of yours. TaiwanAirPower.com? come on.....

A good site that I use for database info on A2A victories is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Although the site may lack accuracy and a bibliography, it sure is convenient.

In numbers of A2A kills, as in aircraft vs aircraft, excluding ground based sams and recon drones, the Rocaf holdes a clear lead over the Plaaf. However, it should be remeber that during the 1959's, sidewinder equipt f-86's inclicted heavy loses on the Plaaf mig-17s. This was quite a predictable result, seeing as how the Pla pilots had absolutely no strategical or psychological preperation for such a weapon. By the time that China had gotten the Attols, the series of air engagements was over.

In light of current aircraft inventories and experience, I would say that both sides are about equal, seeing as how its f-16s, which has a remarkable record for shooting down mig-21s and 29s, to su-27s, which also has a remarkable reputation for shooting down mig 21s and mig 29s. The booast that Rocaf get up to 300 hours of flight time per year on f-16s is also bs, due both to engine run time/resupplies, and that fact that not even the USNAF, the most overly funded airforce in the world, get that much.

Here is a link to the Su-27s 0:7 kill ratio agunist mig29s

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Has quite a big a catching up to do with its counterpart the f-15 don't you think.......
Click to expand...

What are you BSing about the taiwanese claims haved been widely proven flase by recently released record from china the they shoot down as many plans are they claimed china would have ran out of Mig-17 log ago

the very example you use is proof of your igorance the plane shoot down was a Mig-15 but that happened after 1 saber was lost worst yet the chinese manage to recover one of the sinwinders launched that day thats where the K-13 came from
 
X

xihaoli

New Member
Um...I only see like 12 claimed downs....The Plaaf at that time was poorly trained, but had an ample supply of mig-17/J-4s. You should be aware that the mig-17 is the first aircraft that china constructed in the post war reconstruction era. Yes, a sidewinder was recovered that day due to malfuntioning, and because of the sturdyness of the mig series. It is also because of this that the Plaaf loses were heavier compared to the Rocaf.

Hey don't blame me for info, I just got it off some site.. My ignorance? I just picked the site out of convenience....like they say, dont shoot the messenger, even if he does come with the wrong info.

If you are do dedicated to your conviction that the website is total bs, then go make your own...... This website does not seem to me as being biased in anyway.
 
tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
crobato said:
Numerical superiority is difficult to sustain against a small "boxed" airspace. Remember the losses the Luftwaffe took at Malta. Everything has to fly across a gauntlet and the ROCAF only has to defend that gauntlet. Furthermore, many PLAAF aircraft lack the range to reach Taiwan from their home bases. Planes like the J-8II and J-7s would have to be relocated to make shift bases in Fujian, Zhejiang and Guandong in order to bring them to reach over Taiwan. So you need to put that logistical infrastructure to support that many planes. Then you must have sufficient air and mission management assets to control all that air traffic.

It will be like attacking an aircraft carrier that can't be sunk.

It is very difficult to win a pure air to air battle against the ROCAF. It has one of the most powerful airforces in the region---heck even both the ROKAF and the JASDF will be bloodied badly against the ROCAF. The reason for this is that they have a very large number of aircraft, over 330 planes, that is capable of launching ARH missiles. These missiles include the AIM-120C, which is the latest slammer version, the MICA and the TC-2 used on the IDF. Even with J-11s, Su-30s, J-10s and upgraded J-8IIs supported by AWACS, the PLAAF does not have a clear cut superiority. Though I would say you would be left with one glorious air battle that people will be talking about in the history book for ages.

The PLAAF is not going to send massive waves of planes. Rather, several hundred SSMs will come crashing down on the few dozen ROCAF airbases, of which around eight is majorly important, and against all ROCAF static sites like communications. What ever survived the missile onslaught might be attacked by a second wave of cruise missiles, then followed by waves of strike aircraft and their escorts that will bust bunkers and suppress SAMs. That will leave survivors to be picked off with the incoming waves. It would be better if the PLAAF/PLANAF has more Su-30s and JH-7s for the strike and air defense supporession role but they don't, considering that the PLANAF Su-30s and JH-7s would have to be sinking the ROCN, which divides the force even further.

The PLAAF for me still lacks sufficient A2G punch to follow up on the initial SSM attack to make good a clear victory over the ROCAF on the ground. If the PLAAF had chosen things like Zhemchug radar for the J-10 and J-8IIs, the SKM upgrade for the J-11s, the PLAAF would have gained much better multirole A2G capability in the short term, but going with indigineous systems instead, the PLAAF choose to bid for the long term.
Click to expand...
Let's see, the ROCAF has:
146 F-16s which are built to the MLU standard
56 Mirage 2K
128 IDF
some F5s

I personally think that 100 su-30 and 100 JH-7 is enough against the Taiwanese. Granted, 200 is not a huge number in plaaf's overall scheme of things, but is quite a huge number for any other country.

Out of the list of ROCAF, F-16s have quite modern avionics, but the engine should still be the engine used for other F-16A/B. And also, AIM-120C5 are used on these things, which could be fairly lethal. Although, I'm not sure how many of this variant they actually have. Either way, I think J-10 would probably do better than a 1-to-1 kill ratio against this thing.

As for M2K, I really don't see it have overall advantage over J-10 and J-11B either.

In general, I don't really have much of a fear for IDF. I think J-8F/FC-1 can probably handle it. Looking at
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, it doesn't seem to have much in terms of the radar performance and such.

So, I'm basically saying that I think plaaf does have clear cut superiority vs ROCAF.
 
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