ROCAF Indigenous Fighter Program

Seeing as we often see pictures of Taiwan pop up every so often in Chinese daily life and military threads, I see we're not taking sides on PRC vs. ROC. I'm hoping to ask some questions on the Republic of China's AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo indigenous, multi-role fighter. If this gets moved, well then thats ok to. My question is on the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo C/D variant. Obviously the criticisms of the F-CK-1 A/B for being 'underpowered' have a great deal of merit which the C/D variant is supposed to address. I don't hear too many rumours of the F-CK-1 go around, there was talks of the upgrade being shelved over possible aquistion of Block 50/52 F-16s but in 2007 it was given an official name 'Hsiung Ying' in Taiwanese Pinyin. Does anybody have a specific list of the upgrades planned for it? Will the plan see the overhaul of the entire F-CK-1 fleet or just some by the proposed date of 2010? Was there any hope of export of the F-CK-1 given the ROCs political situation at all? Is the Tien Chien/Tian Jian II really the best MRAAM the F-CK-1 has to offer? ROCAF and AIDC have had access to the AIM-120 for years now, will the C/D variant support the AIM-120? In the long run would the F-20 had been a better choice than developing their own fighter?

Re: The AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo: The OTHER China's indigenous fighter

You can check wiki for a list of IDF C/D upgrade plans. Sadly, there is no engine upgrade.

There's a tendency to lean toward imports over domestic products, which is really hurting the local defense industry.

Re: The AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo: The OTHER China's indigenous fighter

adeptitus said:

You can check wiki for a list of IDF C/D upgrade plans. Sadly, there is no engine upgrade.

There's a tendency to lean toward imports over domestic products, which is really hurting the local defense industry.

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Wiki is generally the first place I go for anything! I was hoping for something specific other than 'new avionics and EW capabilities' and I was wondering if all those C/D upgrade cancellation rumours were true. Is the 'new weapons subsystems' only the TC-2A anti-radiation missile or will there be anything more naval/MRAAM related? Its sort of strange they didn't opt for new engines though while at the same time early specifications called for 'stealth' technology to be introduced.

The problem I think with companies like AIDC is that outside domestic use, there is not really much hope of export. Military purchases may be a rather small for a nations overall spending but the symbolism is rather strong and is bound to create a stir in Beijing which is sure to bind the growth of such companies.

Re: The AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo: The OTHER China's indigenous fighter

The first thing they ought to do is change that designation.

Re: The AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo: The OTHER China's indigenous fighter

AssassinsMace said:

The first thing they ought to do is change that designation.

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The way I think it works is the 'f' represents 'fighter' and 'ck' represent Ching Kuo, seperately that makes sense but of course the name really didn't turn out that well

Semi-Lobster said:

Seeing as we often see pictures of Taiwan pop up every so often in Chinese daily life and military threads, I see we're not taking sides on PRC vs. ROC. I'm hoping to ask some questions on the Republic of China's AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo indigenous, multi-role fighter. If this gets moved, well then thats ok to. My question is on the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo C/D variant. Obviously the criticisms of the F-CK-1 A/B for being 'underpowered' have a great deal of merit which the C/D variant is supposed to address. I don't hear too many rumours of the F-CK-1 go around, there was talks of the upgrade being shelved over possible aquistion of Block 50/52 F-16s but in 2007 it was given an official name 'Hsiung Ying' in Taiwanese Pinyin. Does anybody have a specific list of the upgrades planned for it? Will the plan see the overhaul of the entire F-CK-1 fleet or just some by the proposed date of 2010? Was there any hope of export of the F-CK-1 given the ROCs political situation at all? Is the Tien Chien/Tian Jian II really the best MRAAM the F-CK-1 has to offer? ROCAF and AIDC have had access to the AIM-120 for years now, will the C/D variant support the AIM-120? In the long run would the F-20 had been a better choice than developing their own fighter?

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No hope for export. Some of the AIDC people who worked on the project has left for Korea's Golden Eagle project, which looks very similar.

Upgrades centered on updating the electronics, airframe life, potential for CFTs, and the ability to use TC-2 ARM variant. So basically the update is to make a SEAD aircraft.

I don't think AMRAAM support has any hope of going through because putting AMRAAMs on the Ching Kuo means less incentive to buy F-16s. Even the number of TC-2s carried per fighter is curbed for that purpose---deliberate crippling to provide incentive to buy another model like F-16.

The F-20 may not have fared better. It is certainly faster, a lot faster, but it was also a beast to handle with its high wing loading. Two of the prototypes crashed, which is not good.

Do you still remember an IBM PC called the PCjr? Kind of like that, except applied to aviation.

crobato said:

No hope for export. Some of the AIDC people who worked on the project has left for Korea's Golden Eagle project, which looks very similar.

Upgrades centered on updating the electronics, airframe life, potential for CFTs, and the ability to use TC-2 ARM variant. So basically the update is to make a SEAD aircraft.

I don't think AMRAAM support has any hope of going through because putting AMRAAMs on the Ching Kuo means less incentive to buy F-16s. Even the number of TC-2s carried per fighter is curbed for that purpose---deliberate crippling to provide incentive to buy another model like F-16.

The F-20 may not have fared better. It is certainly faster, a lot faster, but it was also a beast to handle with its high wing loading. Two of the prototypes crashed, which is not good.

Do you still remember an IBM PC called the PCjr? Kind of like that, except applied to aviation.

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The Golden Eagle project has as lot of potential, with the political ramifications of having Lockheed Martin and the US Government onboard the project (to a certain extent), it may see widespread service, both as the T-50 and maybe even the F/A-50.

The Ching Kuo from the sounds of it seems to have been a bird built out of a sense of cynical convenience (could not obtain the F-20, politically uncertaintly over getting more F-16s) rather than any hope to kickstart an aeronautics revolution in Taiwan, American and UK based companies seems to have made a tidy profit helping Taiwan in everystep of the way with development. The questions is WILL Taiwan be able to aquire newer F-16s (which was the point of making the lacklustre Ching Kuo) or in 5 or so years will we have to do this delicate diplomatic dance again for ToT where Taiwan once again has to build a new homegrown fighter program (which will make 'downgrading' the Ching Kuo look a bit pointless since development hinged on eventually aquiring F-16s)?

Semi-Lobster said:

The Ching Kuo from the sounds of it seems to have been a bird built out of a sense of cynical convenience (could not obtain the F-20, politically uncertaintly over getting more F-16s)

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Lobster I think you're confused over the IDF project. It was started back in 1982 because the US wouldn't sell the F-20 or F-16. By the time Bush Senior authorised the F-16 sale the IDF had advanced to the point where it would have been barmy not to order at least some. The original requirement for 250 was cut to 130.

The questions is WILL Taiwan be able to aquire newer F-16s (which was the point of making the lacklustre Ching Kuo) or in 5 or so years will we have to do this delicate diplomatic dance again for ToT where Taiwan once again has to build a new homegrown fighter program (which will make 'downgrading' the Ching Kuo look a bit pointless since development hinged on eventually aquiring F-16s)?

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Again I don't see where you're coming from on this. The IDF project was not (to my knowledge) drawn up with the assumption that Taiwan would get the F-16 at any particular stage. Some of the later proposals, such as a new engine, were dropped but more because the F-16 had been approved by then.

Mr T said:

Lobster I think you're confused over the IDF project. It was started back in 1982 because the US wouldn't sell the F-20 or F-16. By the time Bush Senior authorised the F-16 sale the IDF had advanced to the point where it would have been barmy not to order at least some. The original requirement for 250 was cut to 130.

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Ahh, I got my timeline mixed up, F-20 was sunk by the start and the F-16 was teetering back and forth but the F-16 deal would be signed in 1992. The performance issues of the F-CK-1 are more related to political constraints rather than the F-16.

Again I don't see where you're coming from on this. The IDF project was not (to my knowledge) drawn up with the assumption that Taiwan would get the F-16 at any particular stage. Some of the later proposals, such as a new engine, were dropped but more because the F-16 had been approved by then.

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I'm talking about future procurements of more advance later block 50/52 F-16s. Rumours of the C/D project being stalled or cancelled by being overshadowed by new F-16s to supplement the older Block 20s have been going around for a while now, I just wanted to hear if there is anything new on that?

Looking at some of the other aerodyamic designs for the originally planned TEF1042 engine seemed pretty advance, its a shame they didn't go through and had to settle fo the Honeywell F125-70.

crobato said:

Do you still remember an IBM PC called the PCjr? Kind of like that, except applied to aviation.

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How could you possibly go wrong with an under-sized chicklet keyboard?

IBM had a "round 2" with the PS/2 model 25!

Semi-Lobster said:

Looking at some of the other aerodynamic designs for the originally planned TEF1042 engine seemed pretty advance, its a shame they didn't go through and had to settle fo the Honeywell F125-70.

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As already mentioned, there's a fear that making the IDF "too good" would mean reducing F-16 orders. The F-4 Phantom II had several good upgrade projects that were scrapped for similar reasons, including a P&W PW1120 engine upgrade "Boeing Super Phantom".

Personally, I felt that AIDC had the rug pulled under them. As soon as the F-16 sale became a reality, aircraft orders and funding were cut. The funds allocated to the C/D upgrade program was also quite small. The ROC military leadership would rather spend more $ to import proven foreign systems, than to invest in unproven domestic industry products.

The same sentiment is widespread and sometimes they import stuff that's not even suitable for local conditions. Maokong Gondola, for example, were imported from Europe without proper ventilation systems. In Europe they use them on ski slopes so you don't need air conditioning. In Taiwan it gets really hot and humid.

The IDF is not a "top of the line" fighter. It was pieced together with imported technology, and inferior in raw performance to western & Russian front line fighters. But it was an exceptional product that was born out of necessity to counter PLAAF's J-8. Compared to many other still-born aircraft projects, the IDF was fortunate that it not only flew, but was also mass produced for service.

Even if the ROCAF prefers the proven F-16 C/D, IMO AIDC deserves another order of 60-120 aircraft. The IDF platform is still useful as a fighter-trainer replacement for the AT-3.