Renminbi (RMB)/Yuan Appreciation & Internationalization

AndrewS

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8% sounds insane and unachievable, I mean China is basically around 30% of the world's economy. For them to grow that much while rest of the world is mostly suffering would require some sort of economical miracle. 4.3% is still massive and it sounds more realistic. But let's wait and see what happens.

4.3% growth is almost certainly on the low side for 2023.
8% would be a one-off for this year because of the covid lockdown bounceback.
I reckon the longer term average would be around 5-6% per year, based on the historical performance of the other East Asian economic Tigers like Korea and Japan when they were at a similar level.

Remember that China is still only a middle-income country, where the average Chinese person is some 3x "poorer" than the average American.

The thing about making the RMB into the global reserve is that it is likely to hard cap the ability of China to accumulate real growth, because to do so, China must buy massively more than they sell, in order to spread the RMB.

Assuming global reserve will make China fully usurp America's role as global hegemon, but that doesn't mean much if it means the average people in China will see wages stagnate and that industries, jobs, will have to move out of China into other countries, making them dependent.

This is why China instead wants a basket of different currencies as reserve, so that they can still comprehensively play the mercantilism game.


Appreciation and/or depreciation of a currency greatly affects un-adjusted nominal GDP, hence this measure tells us even less than normal GDP, which is honestly also pretty bad. So I wouldn't even think too much about the appreciation rate of the Yuan.

Currency can fluctuate, but what gives real power is basically how much "stuff" you can produce. Stuff of course not only being goods but also research, educated workers etc. This is the metric that really affects living quality and ability of the country to withstand crisis.

China reached the status of largest economy by GDP not because it desparately prioritized acquiring GDP, but because they followed the path of growing productive forces, which naturally led to more GDP.

And most likely China will one day also assume the role of global reserve currency. But it should not be rushed, instead it should come naturally through developing the living standards, the industry, improving and increasing the jobs etc. This is the concept of Xiaokang society, where the "little man" or the class of commoners, are the ones whose needs are put first.

Yes, becoming a global reserve currency is a double-edged sword. Countries inevitably fall to the temptation to print currency and operate trade deficits, which hollows out the domestic economy. Dalio's work on Imperial Rise and Decline quantifies this.

But I do think the mercantilist approach has reached its end.
On a practical level, there are very few areas where China can keep expanding its exports and China doesn't need more foreign currency.
Plus Chinese companies don't have to worry about foreign imports in general, because they've caught up in virtually every area.
So there's no need or any point in keeping a weak currency to get as many exports as possible.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Currency can fluctuate, but what gives real power is basically how much "stuff" you can produce. Stuff of course not only being goods but also research, educated workers etc. This is the metric that really affects living quality and ability of the country to withstand crisis.
Perception of real power matters as well and nominal GDP is the perception of economic power. And nominal market size matters for international investors. If the RMB appreciates more, Chinese markets are going to be more interesting to international investors who report results in USD

But because of capital controls and the huge Chinese foreign currency reserves, the pboc can set the exchange rate at will, should it choose to do so. It will have to be timed very carefully to avoid another American tantrum once they are officially the number two country in the world
 

tphuang

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I think it's better we leave the discussion about economy to the economy thread. Currency strength and economic well being are often correlated but not always. More importantly, this thread is more about internationalization of Yuan, rather than whether or not it's going up.

Thing to consider
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Cross-border RMB settlements for trade in goods amounted to 7.92 trillion yuan (about $1.17 trillion) in 2022, up 37.3 percent from a year ago, Shu Jueting, a spokesperson for the ministry, told a press conference.

In addition, cross-border RMB settlements for direct investment expanded 16.6 percent year on year to 6.76 trillion yuan last year, according to Shu.​
these sound good except that in the past, a large amount of this is just settlement between mainland and HK. So, I'm waiting to see how the non-HK number looks

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so it's great to try cut exchange rate risks and capital costs, but how they do it and implement it is the key. I'm all for going with more foreign trade in RMB and such, but the other countries have to be willing to do it too. Certainly, getting banks to make it easier could help. And same with more free trade zones and such.

FYI: we were are 6.7177 as of 10:45 AM EST.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Do you guys think China is still planning to push forward with a BRICS currency?

I’ve heard more talk about it even in Western press but never heard any official confirmation from the Chinese government and instead seeing more internationalization of the CNY. Makes sense to apply more pressure on the USD reserve currency status and increase demand but there is the risk of reliance on strong CNY like the US is.

I know it’s going to hard to setup the institutions and infrastructure for it but China already has an alternative international currency in the form of the HKD which it could use as a basis or rebranding as a BRIC currency. CNY for domestic consumption, HKD/BRICS for international trade.
 

tphuang

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Do you guys think China is still planning to push forward with a BRICS currency?

I’ve heard more talk about it even in Western press but never heard any official confirmation from the Chinese government and instead seeing more internationalization of the CNY. Makes sense to apply more pressure on the USD reserve currency status and increase demand but there is the risk of reliance on strong CNY like the US is.

I know it’s going to hard to setup the institutions and infrastructure for it but China already has an alternative international currency in the form of the HKD which it could use as a basis or rebranding as a BRIC currency. CNY for domestic consumption, HKD/BRICS for international trade.
it's not in China's interest promote anything but its own currency.

Keep in mind that it is China's currency to promote other countries to use non-USD currency. It will be good for all BRICS nations if we do not have 1 singular reserve currency that monopolizes international financing and trading.

So, that's good to remember.

this is a good point. China should use its money to promote RMB. I guess it's already doing that with this currency swap and forex reserve move with Argentina. But in the future, any country that borrows money at low interest rate from China for an infrastructure project should be borrowing it in RMB rather than USD.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
it's not in China's interest promote anything but its own currency.

Keep in mind that it is China's currency to promote other countries to use non-USD currency. It will be good for all BRICS nations if we do not have 1 singular reserve currency that monopolizes international financing and trading.

So, that's good to remember.

this is a good point. China should use its money to promote RMB. I guess it's already doing that with this currency swap and forex reserve move with Argentina. But in the future, any country that borrows money at low interest rate from China for an infrastructure project should be borrowing it in RMB rather than USD.
I’d argue because of it’s the Triffin Dilemma, it would be beneficial to promote a bloc currency much like the Euro to prevent China from repeating the mistakes of the US, UK or Dutch.

Also much of Germany’s export success is due to the fact it’s currency is shared by member countries allowing greater demand within the bloc for it because of no exchange fees but also outside of it because being used by weaker economies like Greece, Spain or Italy would causes more downward pressure than if it would have been under Germany mark.

China may need to bail out other member countries but it already does this in debt forgiveness as a lender with BRI but with a BRIC currency it formalizes the China’s institutional influence and gives greater legitimacy IMHO.
 
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Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
I’d argue because of it’s the Triffin Dilemma, it would be beneficial to promote a bloc currency much like the Euro to prevent China from repeating the mistakes of the US, UK or Dutch.

Also much of Germany’s export success is due to the fact it’s currency is shared by member countries allowing greater demand within the bloc for it because of no exchange fees but also outside of it because being used by weaker economies like Greece, Spain or Italy would causes more downward pressure than if it would have been under Germany mark.

China may need to bail out other member countries but it already does this in debt forgiveness as a lender with BRI but with a BRIC currency it formalizes the China’s institutional influence and gives greater legitimacy IMHO.
Rather than a BRICS currency, it's more likely it be a 'basket' that Russia for example has been saying.

Or in general, 'local' currency swaps.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Rather than a BRICS currency, it's more likely it be a 'basket' that Russia for example has been saying.

Or in general, 'local' currency swaps.
While I can understand the idea of diluting the CNY via currency swaps into having multiple reserve currencies, this also means maintaining USD primacy longer and unless rubble or rupee also becomes a strong contender close to CNY’s influence (as the UKP and Euro are also widely traded today but the US is still the reserve currency) it ultimately is setting up the CNY as the reserve currency though at a slower rate due to unsustainability of the USD’s strength.
 

coolgod

Major
Registered Member
A BRICS currency, or a Euro like currency bloc is a terrible idea. Look at the long term exchange rate of the other 4 countries, and you quickly see how much the other BRICS countries devalue their currency. How exactly do you expect BRICS countries to coordinate their economic policies? Should China pay double for imports just cause India doesn't have a responsible fiscal policy?

Monetary sovereignty is very important, these large currency unions have barely been tested in the grand scheme of things. The Euro is only 24 years old, I don't expect the EU/Euro to last much longer.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
So just to summarise, we can see Central Banks developing an alternative to the US dollar system, as per the Bloomberg article.
And that whilst the USD is safe for now, they recognise that there will come a day when they have to dump the dollar, and the value of the USD crashes.

Note the huge twin trade and budget deficits that the US runs every year, which is not sustainable in the long-term

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The USA has already imposed USD sanctions on North Korea, Iran and Russia. So the next likely candidate is China, which that means Central Banks are preparing for a day when the US imposes USD sanctions on China.

Given that China produces 90% of the world's antibiotic precursors and China's role in the global economy, we can see why the world wants to continue trading with China even if the US imposes USD sanctions. Note that the non-Western world accounts for 60% of Global economic activity and that share is increasing every year. So why should countries be subject to US control?

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We can also see Western Investment Banks recognise this, and that they are preparing for the day when the world dumps the dollar, as per the previous Credit Suisse report.

And something that will definitely trigger this will be a China-US war.

So a China-US war will mean the end of the dollar as the global reserve currency, no matter how such a war starts or ends.

Comments?
 
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