Recommended Books about China : China Rising by Jeff J Brown

Equation said:

Beware of the yellow peril mantra is racism. It's like how Nazis party during their rise to power of the early years blaming Jews for all of Germany's economic ills. We are seeing the same mantra happening. When things don't go well at home, the first thing the majority elitist would put the blame on is usually either minorities or foreigners.

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watching the political chaos in Venezuela soar over the years should be cautionary tale to American politicians. Chavez kept blaming all the country's problem on an external actor, America in that case, with increasingly harsh rhetoric. We are seeing similar trend in the West, with Brexit and the rise of Trump. The ruling class keeps blaming China or immigrants (not the real cause) without taking concrete steps to fix the real problems in their own countries (for the common people). The ruling class will be the first to fall when the people are really fed up.

Equation said:

Beware of the yellow peril mantra is racism. It's like how Nazis party during their rise to power of the early years blaming Jews for all of Germany's economic ills. We are seeing the same mantra happening. When things don't go well at home, the first thing the majority elitist would put the blame on is usually either minorities or foreigners.

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When I said the "Death by China" devotees engage in neo-Yellow Perilism, I mean they see China as the only competitor capable of unseating the US, so they oppose its reemergence. It's not anti-China based on race, but anti-China because they fear it will be too successful, regardless of race.

Blackstone said:

When I said the "Death by China" devotees engage in neo-Yellow Perilism, I mean they see China as the only competitor capable of unseating the US, so they oppose its reemergence. It's not anti-China based on race, but anti-China because they fear it will be too successful, regardless of race.

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It's deeper than that. China rise is a threat to their religious institutional beliefs. China being an ongoing civilization and mostly atheist proves to them that their religious values is a fake therefore irrelevant. Bottom line is it's never right or ok to engage in any "neo Yellow Perilism". If one did, that means you are afraid of something that you shouldn't be. China's Communism is not threatening to man kind existence or anything like that, so why publish such an extremist view point?

Equation said:

It's deeper than that. China rise is a threat to their religious institutional beliefs. China being an ongoing civilization and mostly atheist proves to them that their religious values is a fake therefore irrelevant. Bottom line is it's never right or ok to engage in any "neo Yellow Perilism". If one did, that means you are afraid of something that you shouldn't be. China's Communism is not threatening to man kind existence or anything like that, so why publish such an extremist view point?

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We disagree completely on the religious part. Communist China's short atheistic reign isn't a "civilization," nor does it prove religious values as "fake" nor does it threaten neocon's faith.

Blackstone said:

We disagree completely on the religious part. Communist China's short atheistic reign isn't a "civilization," nor does it prove religious values as "fake" nor does it threaten neocon's faith.

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Religious institution has NO place in government or morality refereeing. Otherwise why would NOT be threaten by another system that's far more successful at upbringing hundreds of millions out poverty and another hundreds of millions into middle class status. Isn't that what religious institution has always been trying to do? To provide hope and a better future while getting approval from the sky god?

Blackstone said:

Equation said:

It's deeper than that. China rise is a threat to their religious institutional beliefs. China being an ongoing civilization and mostly atheist proves to them that their religious values is a fake therefore irrelevant. Bottom line is it's never right or ok to engage in any "neo Yellow Perilism". If one did, that means you are afraid of something that you shouldn't be. China's Communism is not threatening to man kind existence or anything like that, so why publish such an extremist view point?

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We disagree completely on the religious part. Communist China's short atheistic reign isn't a "civilization," nor does it prove religious values as "fake" nor does it threaten neocon's faith.

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I think you miss-quoted what Equation said. He said China's civilization is an ongoing one (since China became known as China thousand years ago including but not limited to the current Communist era). So your notion that I highlighted is not relevant. If you do not pick out CCP era, but see it as one part of the long atheistic tradition, you would not see a problem in Equation's post.

Also, besides CCP being proactive atheist, all the ruling Chinese dynasties were atheistic, majorities being passive (tolerate religions to a point), but some had been proactive atheists including dismantling religious organizations, such as Wuzong of Tang's suppression of Buddhists and to a less extent Nestorianism 景教, Manicheism 摩尼教 and Zoroastrianism 祆教 (842 to 846AD). That was in a dynasty known for the patronage of emperors to the Buddhists. There were other dynasties suppressed other religions such as Taoism. This is to say that Chinese state ideology was and is always atheistic based since Qin Shihuang established the first imperial dynasty at 221BC. No need to drag communism in the picture no matter how much you hate it.

taxiya said:

I think you miss-quoted what Equation said. He said China's civilization is an ongoing one (since China became known as China thousand years ago including but not limited to the current Communist era). So your notion that I highlighted is not relevant. If you do not pick out CCP era, but see it as one part of the long atheistic tradition, you would not see a problem in Equation's post.

Also, besides CCP being proactive atheist, all the ruling Chinese dynasties were atheistic, majorities being passive (tolerate religions to a point), but some had been proactive atheists including dismantling religious organizations, such as Wuzong of Tang's suppression of Buddhists and to a less extent Nestorianism 景教, Manicheism 摩尼教 and Zoroastrianism 祆教 (842 to 846AD). That was in a dynasty known for the patronage of emperors to the Buddhists. There were other dynasties suppressed other religions such as Taoism. This is to say that Chinese state ideology was and is always atheistic based since Qin Shihuang established the first imperial dynasty at 221BC. No need to drag communism in the picture no matter how much you hate it.

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I think the context of Equation's atheism message was for the current government, and he mentioned it in his reply. Also, while China didn't have state religions in its long history, religion was nevertheless widespread, and its people generally believed in deities and the afterlife.

As for the CCP, I try and take a balanced and realistic view of the organization, based on facts. If it lifts hundreds of million out of abject poverty, I say so, and if it killed tens of millions of people, I say that too. I call them as I see them. I'm also on record as saying the following about the CCP:

1. In spite of some glaring exceptions, post-Mao CCP generally governed with 'enlightened authoritarianism' that has greatly benefited China's development
2. It's unlikely non-CCP governance would have matched achievements in China's economic development and quality of life improvement
3. At the moment, there isn't a better alternative to the CCP because chaos and maybe even civil war are the likely results of the its overthrow
4. I'd like to see the Chinese people get to choose whether to keep or eject the CCP, after the country reaches fully developed status- something like South Korea or Taiwan today. And I personally hope they choose a republic form of government with free, open, and multiparty elections that produces some kind of democratic-meritocracy
5. I also point out the CCP's obvious flaws, and I pull no punches on egregious behavior

So, if your definition of CCP-hate is the above, then I proudly wear that scarlet letter.

Blackstone said:

I think the context of Equation's atheism message was for the current government, and he mentioned it in his reply. Also, while China didn't have state religions in its long history, religion was nevertheless widespread, and its people generally believed in deities and the afterlife.

As for the CCP, I try and take a balanced and realistic view of the organization, based on facts. If it lifts hundreds of million out of abject poverty, I say so, and if it killed tens of millions of people, I say that too. I call them as I see them. I'm also on record as saying the following about the CCP:

1. In spite of some glaring exceptions, post-Mao CCP generally governed with 'enlightened authoritarianism' that has greatly benefited China's development
2. It's unlikely non-CCP governance would have matched achievements in China's economic development and quality of life improvement
3. At the moment, there isn't a better alternative to the CCP because chaos and maybe even civil war are the likely results of the its overthrow
4. I'd like to see the Chinese people get to choose whether to keep or eject the CCP, after the country reaches fully developed status- something like South Korea or Taiwan today. And I personally hope they choose a republic form of government with free, open, and multiparty elections that produces some kind of democratic-meritocracy
5. I also point out the CCP's obvious flaws, and I pull no punches on egregious behavior

So, if your definition of CCP-hate is the above, then I proudly wear that scarlet letter.

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Now lets be fair and switch the CCP to religious institution instead, would you still be proud wearing that same scarlet letter knowing full well throughout history religious institution has created a lot more wars and blood than the CPC without the economic success and uplifting of hundreds of millions out of poverty?

Here are my takes about the CPC and China:

1. The CPC has shown to be the most effective meritocracy type of government existing today.
2. I like to see the Chinese people to continue on supporting the CPC government for stability and avoid the trappings of a fake democracy with phony "free, open and multiparty elections" that can cause instability and chaos such as in South Korea, Taiwan, and the US where only the elitist party members rules. Noticed all of them relies on CPC China for it's economy?
3. I would like China to be free from the ineptness of the religious institutions and worshipping of a false idols and gods that made many countries through out the world poorer and more troubled where only a few of members become rich.
4. I will also point out outrageous behaviors of the religious leaders as well and how church should NEVER be a part of any state government. History has proven that these brain washing institutions makes for very poor statesmanship.

Blackstone said:

I think the context of Equation's atheism message was for the current government, and he mentioned it in his reply. Also, while China didn't have state religions in its long history, religion was nevertheless widespread, and its people generally believed in deities and the afterlife.

As for the CCP, I try and take a balanced and realistic view of the organization, based on facts. If it lifts hundreds of million out of abject poverty, I say so, and if it killed tens of millions of people, I say that too. I call them as I see them. I'm also on record as saying the following about the CCP:

1. In spite of some glaring exceptions, post-Mao CCP generally governed with 'enlightened authoritarianism' that has greatly benefited China's development
2. It's unlikely non-CCP governance would have matched achievements in China's economic development and quality of life improvement
3. At the moment, there isn't a better alternative to the CCP because chaos and maybe even civil war are the likely results of the its overthrow
4. I'd like to see the Chinese people get to choose whether to keep or eject the CCP, after the country reaches fully developed status- something like South Korea or Taiwan today. And I personally hope they choose a republic form of government with free, open, and multiparty elections that produces some kind of democratic-meritocracy
5. I also point out the CCP's obvious flaws, and I pull no punches on egregious behavior

So, if your definition of CCP-hate is the above, then I proudly wear that scarlet letter.

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Just for clarification.

Only Equation knows what exactly he meant by his post. My post was only my perception of his wording. I can't be sure of your interpretation being right, but neither can I totally reject.

As for CCP. My post #16 did not limit to CCP, but rather communism in general. That is my perception of you from your past posts, right or wrong only you know. One extra to add is that I perceive that you disapprove anything that is not conforming to western democracy model, communism being the "hated" while other "Authoritarian" being "disapproved". I have read from many western media such as BBC and CNN etc. labeling Singapore "Authoritarian" because the long dominance of the ruling party. I see the BBC and CNN image in you. Once again, I may be wrong about you, but that image is the only thing that I can figure out why you made those posts.

Despite the increasing age of the book and the time passed and changes in the world since the period the book covers I strongly recommend Barbara Tuchman's "Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-1945" as a must read for anyone interested in US-China relations.