Rand Report : US Could be Defeated

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unknauthr

Junior Member
I came across the following Rand study, while surfing the web:
Entering the Dragon's Lair: Chinese Antiaccess Strategies and Their Implications for the United States
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I don't know if anyone else has had a chance to review the document. It came out this past March, although I didn't hear anything about it in the press at the time. The following items from the report, in particular, drew my attention:

"PLA writings have identified several perceived strategic U.S. vulnerabilities. First is the possibility that U.S. forces could be involved in two major contingency operations simultaneously. PLA writers have observed that even a relatively limited engagement, like the 1999 conflict with Serbia over Kosovo, requires significant U.S. forces and that timing a military operation for when the United States was already engaged could mean that the United States would not have enough forces available to respond to China’s actions. In addition, some Chinese strategists calculate that the perceived U.S. aversion to casualties might be exploited by delivering a sudden blow aimed at causing a large number of U.S. military casualties, sowing doubt and discontent among the U.S. population, and potentially forcing the withdrawal of U.S. forces." (p. xv)

"Noting the great distances that U.S. forces would need to travel in a conflict with China, attacks against logistic systems are also discussed. The goals of these attacks would be to delay the deployment of additional U.S. forces to the region and to render existing forces in the region less effective or more vulnerable by preventing timely supplies of the materiel needed for warfighting." (p. xvi)

"Chinese strategists appear to understand that success against the U.S. military depends on China’s ability to avoid a direct confrontation with U.S. forces in a traditional, force-on-force battle. In an interview with the newspaper China Youth Daily, a PLA senior colonel compared any attempt by China to contend directly with the United States in a hightechnology conflict to 'throwing an egg against a rock'." (p.28)

"The possibility of a Chinese antiaccess strategy is more than hypothetical. . . .
"As a consequence of all this, it is possible that the United States could actually be defeated in a conflict with China—not in the sense that the U.S. military would be destroyed but in the sense that China would accomplish its military-political objectives while preventing the United States from accomplishing some or all of its own political and military objectives. A weakened initial U.S. response to a Chinese assault on Taiwan, for example, could result in the collapse of Taiwan’s military resistance. The island might therefore capitulate before the United States could bring all its combat power to bear." (pp.111-112)​

All told, the Rand report is worth a read.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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I will let this thread stand as long as the post follow the forum rules.

bd popeye super moderator
 

akinkhoo

Junior Member
In addition, some Chinese strategists calculate that the perceived U.S. aversion to casualties might be exploited by delivering a sudden blow aimed at causing a large number of U.S. military casualties, sowing doubt and discontent among the U.S. population, and potentially forcing the withdrawal of U.S. forces
we can clearly recall what happened in pearl harbour. casualties will likely impact the general staff more than the public.

US long range (coldwar) hardware is still dangerous to China. while China may be able to deny US access, i dare say the US can do the same to China, forcing a stalement.
 

Norfolk

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we can clearly recall what happened in pearl harbour. casualties will likely impact the general staff more than the public.

Completely agreed. Only casualities suffered over the course of a long war really cause any serious deterioration in US will to fight. A great loss of life, such as from the loss of an aircraft carrier, would only be waving a red flag in front of a bull. Such an event would only make the US determined to fight with almost everything it could, and to the bitter end. Not a good strategy.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Back in WWII, people knew casualties were going to happen. Today is different. Because of technology and complacency, the American public expects low casualties. So that's a problem and it shows with the loss of support for the Iraq War even though by historical standards the loss of US troops is still extremely low.

Support from the American public really depends on what would lead to conflict with China. I'm sure if Americans followed long held stereotpyes, there would be support for a while. But reality is more complicated than that or China would've lived up to American's expectations long ago. If China can inflict continuous casulties on the US, that support will wane and won't be as strong. I don't think that will ever come close to happening because if it can be shown that a country can continually inflict a high number of casulaties on the US, it would a huge blow to the US's image and power status afterwards. So that's why the US will respond with nukes if just one carrier gets hits. Then you have nuclear war.
 

mxiong

Junior Member
So that's why the US will respond with nukes if just one carrier gets hits. Then you have nuclear war.

Even though hit by conventional warheads? I doubt it. Because by your logic any major victory against US on the battlefield will result in American nuclear retaliation, which obviously doesn't sound reasonable.
 

Raptoreyes

New Member
Back in WWII, people knew casualties were going to happen. Today is different. Because of technology and complacency, the American public expects low casualties. So that's a problem and it shows with the loss of support for the Iraq War even though by historical standards the loss of US troops is still extremely low.

The American public expects low causalities vs third rate opponents such as the Serbs or similar military forces of small nations. In any battle against the main forces of the Chinese military public expectations in the USA would be quite different.

Support from the American public really depends on what would lead to conflict with China.

Agreed... but it would perhaps hinge on how disciplined Chinese troops were when dealing with civilians in areas under their control.

Outrage over Abu Graib for instance was fairly muted because everybody observing knew it was largely an aberration based on poor infrastructure planning and and an overworked prison guard establishment. Even the Democrats were not able to make substantial political gains over it. (let alone the foreign fighters that were plaguing Iraq at the time, if current progress their is any indication)

The Chinese government however wont be given the benefit of the doubt, should similar things happen under a Chinese command.... at least not in the "Anglosphere", or any nation currently bordering china.

I'm sure if Americans followed long held stereotpyes, there would be support for a while. But reality is more complicated than that or China would've lived up to American's expectations long ago. If China can inflict continuous casualties on the US, that support will wane and won't be as strong. I don't think that will ever come close to happening because if it can be shown that a country can continually inflict a high number of casualties on the US, it would a huge blow to the US's image and power status afterwards. So that's why the US will respond with nukes if just one carrier gets hits. Then you have nuclear war.

It would take a lot more then the destruction of a single carrier for the United States to go nuclear. Never the less any hot conventional war between china and the US that last more then one year would probably experience increasing probability over the one year mark that somebody would use nuclear weapons. The longer the conflict the better things have of going out of control.

Its likely that China would not go to war with the US... unless it had first formed an Axis with other powers traditionally hostile to US interests. Its unlikely their would be any sort of purely localized conflict betteen the US and China. Any Sino-American military action would likely be in the context of a world war as smaller allies to both nations were almost instantly dragged in.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Even though hit by conventional warheads? I doubt it. Because by your logic any major victory against US on the battlefield will result in American nuclear retaliation, which obviously doesn't sound reasonable.

Reasonable depends on who you talk to. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked because it would save Americans lives. Unofficially it can be debated if that was the real reason. I don't see any difference with Japan and China in that regard. Rememeber Bush says the US has the right to first strike with nukes on a country with nukes. A carrier is so important in the minds of Americans that they would respond with nukes.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The American public expects low causalities vs third rate opponents such as the Serbs or similar military forces of small nations. In any battle against the main forces of the Chinese military public expectations in the USA would be quite different.



Agreed... but it would perhaps hinge on how disciplined Chinese troops were when dealing with civilians in areas under their control.

Outrage over Abu Graib for instance was fairly muted because everybody observing knew it was largely an aberration based on poor infrastructure planning and and an overworked prison guard establishment. Even the Democrats were not able to make substantial political gains over it. (let alone the foreign fighters that were plaguing Iraq at the time, if current progress their is any indication)

The Chinese government however wont be given the benefit of the doubt, should similar things happen under a Chinese command.... at least not in the "Anglosphere", or any nation currently bordering china.



It would take a lot more then the destruction of a single carrier for the United States to go nuclear. Never the less any hot conventional war between china and the US that last more then one year would probably experience increasing probability over the one year mark that somebody would use nuclear weapons. The longer the conflict the better things have of going out of control.

Its likely that China would not go to war with the US... unless it had first formed an Axis with other powers traditionally hostile to US interests. Its unlikely their would be any sort of purely localized conflict betteen the US and China. Any Sino-American military action would likely be in the context of a world war as smaller allies to both nations were almost instantly dragged in.

I agree with most of what you say there but American casualties are American casulaties. No matter who inflicts them, Americans lives are valued more. Which is why if there are high casualties inflicted in a short amount of time or instance, Americans expect a response.
 
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