Qin Army

Sorry for the double post but I have been researching the terracota army. Here is what I found:

If the terracotta soldiers are a typical military unit of the Qin, then we can infer several things.

Pit 1
6,000 plus infantry of various types.

The Vanguard: 210 unarmoured bowmen and crossbowmen form the vanguard (the front ranks to the east), standing in 3 rows of 70 warriors. 3 armoured officers stand at both ends and the middle of the first row. The rest of the vanguard is unarmoured, wearing only course tunics girded with belts. Their footwear consisted of puttees and thonged square-toed sandals. The vanguard archers and crossbowmen had a variety of hairstyles but their weapons had deteriorated long ago.

The Main Force: 36 columns of infantrymen and charioteers stand in tight formation behind the vanguard in 9 corridors. All 6,000 warriors in this body wear armour, though the armour varied by functions and ranks. They were supposed to hold spears and halberds in their hands, while wearing bronze swords in wooden scabbards at their waists. However, the wooden parts had since decayed. The 35 4-horse chariots were escorted by infantrymen to offer better protection for the horses.

The Outer Flanks: Occupying the extreme left (northern) and right (southern) corridors are two rows of unarmoured archers in each corridor, facing north and south respectively.

The Rear-guard (to the west) consists of 3 rows, 2 facing front (i.e. east) with the last row facing the rear (i.e. west)

Pit 2
1,000 soldiers, 500 horses, and 89 wooden chariots. This seems to be the cavalry arm of the army and may operate in conjunction with the soldiers in Pit 1 or independently. They consists of:

First Section: First group, 334 archers, is lined up in eight clusters. They are armed with crossbows. Some 160, clad in heavy protective armor, are in the front line kneeling position, and others stand behind to shoot over their heads.

Second Section: Second group, 64 chariots, is also in eight clusters. Each chariot is officered by an archer, supported by a soldier on either side, and reinforced by another infantryman in the flank. It is an improvement on chariot tactics.

Third Section: At the center of Pit No. 2, the third section has 19 war chariots and around 100 warriors. They are three clusters: the right, the left, and the rear. Each has chariots up at front. Messengers and archers hurry about on their business.

Fourth Section: There are three clusters, consisting of six chariots, 124 vaulting horses and men. Each chariot carries two: the charioteer and his scout. The cavalryman looks ferocious, and holds a bow in his hand. The wooden chariots have rotten away with age, but they leave clear unmistakable marks on the floor.

Pit 3 is the headquarters section and consists of 68 soldiers - the general and his staff

Great videos! Thanks :china:

Regarding the Qin army . . .

From watching those fantastic videos, I believe the Qin army was mostly an offensive army that used superior strategy, tactics, and technology to wage calculated offensives and strategic retreats to defeat other armies, whether offensive or defensive. The Qin army was an offensive powerhouse, and for defense, they perfected the saying, "The best defense is a good offense."

1. Built incredibly efficient roads and walls across great distances to boost the army's mobility and transportation of supplies. The roads and walls were generally straight, flat, and smooth, while reaching out great distances. Built or redirected canals to further improve the army's mobility and transportation of supplies.

2. Used all types of multi-ranged weapons to gradually defeat the enemy.

The longest weapon: spies to gather enemy data, and saboteurs to undermine the enemy. Spies walked on foot or rode horses. Spies and saboteurs were dispersed in ALL directions to alert of and sabotage surprise attacks in any direction.

The 2nd longest weapon: soldiers using powerful, user-friendly crossbows while riding horses and on chariots for hit-and-run attacks.

The 3rd longest weapon: foot soldiers using powerful, user-friendly crossbows and powerful bows to defeat the enemy from great distances. These crossbowmen and archers used three rows for true repetitious firing: first row fired and went back to third row to reload, second row is ready to fire and steps to first row, and third row reloads/rests and steps to second row to get ready for shooting.

The 4th longest weapon: spearmen carrying spears AT LEAST 21 feet long while moving in tight, organized rows to defeat enemy soldiers who have been able to reach the Qin army's body.

The 5th longest weapon: spearmen carrying possibly 7 to 12 foot long spears to defeat enemy soldiers who have been able to bypass the 21-feet-long spearmen.

The 6th longest weapon: spearmen carring ~6 to 8 foot long spears that look that long dagger axes to defeat enemy soldier who have been able to bypass the previous spearmen.

The shortest weapon: swordsmen carrying 3 to 4 feet long swords. The swords were straight swords designed for stabbing, not slicing. This makes sense since the swordsmen fought in close units.

3. All the soldiers were lightly armored to various degrees (very few metal armor) and excelled at all types of ranged combat. These soldiers were expected to defeat the enemy by attacking the enemy while preventing the enemy from attacking through superior ranged combat, superior mobility, and strategic retreats. This army avoided slugging it out with the enemy on the battlefield, in castles, and though wars of attrition.

4. From other sources, I learned that the Qin army wore excellent sandals and shoes (for their time). This would further improve the Qin army's mobility. Amazingly, the Qin army did not invent stirrups.

However, we cannot be sure about the information from these wonderful videos. The Qin emperor's grand tomb and "eternal army" is still mostly covered and NOT analyzed. There is still MUCH, MUCH more to learn about the Qin army.

Learning about the Qin emperor and army will be difficult, because the Qin army used lots of wood, leather, and other decomposable materials.

Also, all this information about the Qin emperor and army is "limited." The information is from the perspective of the Qin emperor and army. To fully understand the Qin emperor and army, we need to study the Qin's enemies' rulers and armies.

Chinese archaeologists have A LOT of work ahead of them.

thanks for the update of the video.

though from what ive seen in the video, my views of qin army differs from inframan99 from his 4th wepaon till swordsman.
- the 21ft long spear needs 2 hands just to hold it in one place, it will most likely be a shock weapon, where it can act like ground lances. which makes sense since stirups werent invented as of yet and infantry is more easily available. i however dont think it has many defensive or melee capabilities outside of charging attackers and protecting crossbowman from the rear like swiss formations. if the enemy breaches 20ft range, they can easily slaughter the defenceless spearman.
- the 7-12ft long spear has similar problems, and spears have been proven to be worse off in a melee combat outside of formations. the length of this spear is most likely for anti-cav / shock, with reasonable ability to be used as a phalanx. however i cannot remember where, but i read from an ancient text that spearman were most effective in forests, which is complete opposite of dense packed formations of a phalanx, perhaps it has duel use?
- the dagger axe is a polearm rather than a spear. polearms have almost no melee disadvantages compared to that of a spear, and can still perform well out of formation or aginest horses. it was said in the video, they stood further apart than each other and its their individual fighting skills that gives them the edge. they seem to be the main melee fighting units, and will go into the breach the 21ft spears have created in enemy formations, or fighting the enemy when the enemy breaches your formations. the ancient text states that they are most effective on open terrain. (i personally would think irregulars would perform better in rugged terrain, and spears who are in close formations perform better in open terrain, in a perfect world.)
- i am not aware of the extent qin has used their swordsman. it was said in ancient text, that swordsman are best used during valleys where you are expected to be shot at from many directions and will take a long time to slowly grind your way through the enemy. much like what roman legionaries would do. the other source of swordsman i could think of are wei's elites, who are heavily armored hybrid archer/swordsman with excellent swords for melee combat, but i have yet to find more information on that matter.

all of these points are from my knowledge of how macedonian / greek spearman and what tactics they used in combat, which is very similar to what i am seeing in the video. Though the ancient text would say otherwise, i will try to find a source for the text and post it here. i personally do not belive everything a single piece of text has to say, but it offers a point of view from people back then. i agree with all other points inframan99 has to offer and i do not intent for this post to be personal, but rather a chance to share and discuss history.

Great discussion

The 20 feet long spears would be great offensive and defensive weapons, and so would the shorter spears, as long as you use them correctly.

I read that a few Greeks, like the Spartans, used 15 to 20 feet long spears in tight formations to defeat many, many Persian swordsmen, cavalry, and 7 feet long spear men. They waited for the Persians to charge into them, and let the Persians impale themselves onto the Spartan long spears. When the Persians retreated, the Spartans would march forth and run them down.

With spears 20 feet long, you could have rows and rows of spears all facing one direction. An enemy would have to fight their way through all those rows of spears to get to the spear men. This is why it took many, many Persians to kill the Spartans and Greeks with long spears. Turning directions would be a problem, but that is why you use groups coordinating their attacks together supplemented by 7 to 12 feet long spear men plus 6 to 8 feet long dagger-axe spear men plus 4 to 3 feet long swordsmen.

Qin Army Example:

Qin Army:
X = swordsmen
s = 6 to 12 feet long spears
S = 20 feet spears (possibly longer)
A = archers on horseback
C = crossbowmen on horseback

O = Your army of 3 to 2.5 feet long swordsmen and 6 to 8 feet long spearmen. Notice that you have inferior reach than the Qin army.

Don't mind the many periods and dashes (they are just for marking distances).

You chased after the Qin army that was retreating (secret strategic retreat). Now the Qin army stops and you find Qin archers and crossbowmen on horseback at your army's sides. The Qin archers and crossbowmen are shooting at you and slowly shooting down your army.
---------------------------------------------------------
................CCCCC
XXX...........CCCCC
XXX
XXX
XXX

sssSS................OOOOOOOOO
sssSS................OOOOOOOOO
sssSS.................OOOOOOOOO
sssSS.................OOOOOOOOO
sssSS................OOOOOOOOO
sssSS................OOOOOOOOO

XXX
XXX
XXX
XXX

................CCCCC
...............CCCCC
--------------------------------------------------------
Your options:

1. Charge into the Qin armies main body and get impaled onto the long spears while the Qin 6 to 12 feet long spear men surround your frontal sides, the archers and crossbowmen on horseback shoot your sides and rear, and the 4 to 3 feet long swordsmen are waiting on the outside to finish off whoever is left.

2. Retreat and get chased and shot down by Qin archers and crossbowmen on horseback.

3. Chase after the Qin archers and crossbowmen on horseback, but the Qin riders will retreat while shooting at you (aka hit and run), thus, the more you chase after the Qin riders, the more men you lose.

If you don't know, this hit-and-run technique by archers/crossbowmen on horseback was perfected by Chinese and Mongolian armies.

4. Try to attack one group of swordsmen, but risk getting surrounded and impaled by the rest of the Qin army.

crazy stuff indeed.
but what is more interesting is the logistic and manufacturing process to enable these men to fight. Right ratio of mixing to enable strong and long bronze sword long enough to oustab people. Arrowhead and spearhead or the same quality. This was like crazy thing to do, but with brutal laws i guess this was possible.

but on the 4-2 video it has said that they had enrolled a million people, but when they said that it has only 5 million people as population how do they enroll that much people?? was the 5 million the original population of qin or after they conquered the other countries. Another thing that they did was the qin's straight road, the will of the enperor is so powerful.

ahho said:

but on the 4-2 video it has said that they had enrolled a million people, but when they said that it has only 5 million people as population how do they enroll that much people?? was the 5 million the original population of qin or after they conquered the other countries. Another thing that they did was the qin's straight road, the will of the enperor is so powerful.

Click to expand...

That was the result of the Shang Yang reforms. These reforms basically made the Qin state into an organized military camp. People were divided into those who make food (farmers) and those who fight.

Shang Yang swept away the aristocracy and implemented a meritocracy - only those who achieved could reach high places and birth privilege was reserved exclusively for the ruler of the state.

In this reform, Shang Yang emphasized severe punishments, believing that draconian penalties helped to prevent crimes.

Shang Yang not only encouraged people to report suspects and crimes by offering rewards, he also implemented the system of lianzuo to crack down on crimes.

According to historical documents, the reforms required that every five to 10 households were registered as a group, with each household having the duty of overseeing its neighbours in the group. A crime by one family would result in punishments for the others in the group.

The system was extended to soldiers and officials. Soldiers were grouped into units of five, if one fled in the war, the other four would be punished.

Edit: added part 3 of episode 4

I read that a few Greeks, like the Spartans, used 15 to 20 feet long spears in tight formations to defeat many, many Persian swordsmen, cavalry, and 7 feet long spear men. They waited for the Persians to charge into them, and let the Persians impale themselves onto the Spartan long spears. When the Persians retreated, the Spartans would march forth and run them down.

Click to expand...

- the 21ft long spear needs 2 hands just to hold it in one place, it will most likely be a shock weapon, where it can act like ground lances. which makes sense since stirups werent invented as of yet and infantry is more easily available. i however dont think it has many defensive or melee capabilities outside of charging attackers and protecting crossbowman from the rear like swiss formations. if the enemy breaches 20ft range, they can easily slaughter the defenceless spearman.

Click to expand...

Some things that have to be clarified. Macedonian Phalanx is very different from Spartan, or the rest of the Greek style, Phalnax. The Spartans use shorter spears, around 12 to 15 foot length, which can be held in one hand, while a shield is holding the other. The Macedonian version, which is up to 21 feet long, requires both hands and do not carry shields. Because of the length of the spears, the Macedonia version is much more dense. However, once phalanx meets phalanx, the Macedonian version just ate up the Spartan version, so as a result Macedonia is the one power that managed to unite the Greeks.

Another historical analog would be the Swiss pikemen.

The problem of such extreme pike formations is their limited maneuverbility in dealing with threats from the side and the rear, as well as in uneven terrain. That's the reason why the Romans managed to own the phalanx. Alexander the Great was well aware of the disadvantages of this formation, which is why he had to cover it extensively with cavalry, archery, and faster skirmish formations.

In the same sense, you have it with the Qin army. The phalanx matrix have to be defended in the other sides by cavalry, fast melee formations and missile troops. In the Qin army, the troops carrying the spear, dagger axe provide the protection to the pike troops. As a matter of fact, the Swiss pikemen have their dagger axe equivalents in the form of the Swiss halberd troops.

One thing I should mention about the shorter spear troops is that shorter spears potentially allow the soldier to throw it like a javelin, so the spear is in fact, a short ranged missile weapon. We don't know if the Qin used it this way, though we know the Romans did.

Let me mention something about melee fighting with a long pole arm. It is true, that at close quarters, the sword is more "maneuverable" and is generally a better weapon. But in the open field, the polearm rules. The length and weight of a pole arm means that when you swing it that the bladed part of the weapon is coming in at a much higher rate of speed and energy than you would typically in a sword, resulting in a much greater striking power and damage. Against halberd troops, you don't want to be using shields, because shields will be smashed or hacked through. A dagger axe or halberd can also be thrusted forward to stab, and when you pull it, it can draw and catch the victim behind it.

Incidentally, the Ge or Dagger Axe remains enshrined as one of the 18 traditional Chinese weapons, but in the succeeding centuries after the Qin, it gradually fell out of favor, until one point, it was completely replaced by the pole arm Daos like the Guan Dao, Pu Dao or the Huyue Dao, all these variations of the same theme, a long pole with a big single edged blade on the end.

Edit: Added Part 1 of Episode 5.

Shows how the Qin could manage a million man army with a population of 5 million.