Proposal for an alternate LCS design for the US Navy

Given the way the LCS program is languishing and running into all sorts of budgetary problems, particularly regarding the integration of new technologies and the "mission packs", I thought I would stir the pot a little with a proposed alternate LCS or two.

The first alternate design would not be as exotic as either current LCS designs, but it would introduce significant armament technologies onto the vessel in a more traditional arrangement (multi-mission from the onset) and could be prodiced cheaper.



The second alternate design is based on an evolved International LCS design from Lockheed and some designs out of Northrop Grumman using the Evolved Advanced combat System (EACS).



That one would be heavier, and much more expensive. Probably exceeding the paramters required for the large multi-build desired for the LCS...but interesting none the less.

The reality is that there is a lot of political capital already tied up in the existing LCS program and it is unlikely that a new design will be considered...but if it continues to languish and suffer severe program management and budgetary issues...you never know.

Is 2000ton enough for this ship? I think it's not stealthy enough. Also the only land attack weapon is the 57mm gun, is it possible to fit something like SDB on the ship? Is the radar on the top AN/SPS55? Is it capable of detecting and tracking land targets?

szbd said:

Is 2000ton enough for this ship? I think it's not stealthy enough. Also the only land attack weapon is the 57mm gun, is it possible to fit something like SDB on the ship? Is the radar on the top AN/SPS55? Is it capable of detecting and tracking land targets?

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Still fleshing out the design. May go with a 76mm main gun. Also the VLS will be LACM capable, so that the land attack mission can be addressed by adding 8 of those.

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Later. Added the 76mm compact gun, TLAM capability and added displacement for the TLAMs and the larger gun and its ammo. 2500 tons, but that is as far as it can or should go IMHO for this type vessel. Still, would be a very powerful Corvette design.

I didn't mean sth like LACM. I suppose this ship will go close to the shore and have the ability to attack a large number of land targets with cheap weapons, something not so big, not so long a range. Like, some kind of small smart land attack munitions. More than 8, maybe 32, but smaller and cheaper.

Jeff Head said:

Still fleshing out the design. May go with a 76mm main gun. Also the VLS will be LACM capable, so that the land attack mission can be addressed by adding 8 of those.

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Later. Added the 76mm compact gun, TLAM capability and added displacement for the TLAMs and the larger gun and its ammo. 2500 tons, but that is as far as it can or should go IMHO for this type vessel. Still, would be a very powerful Corvette design.

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Yeah, it's very powerful, much more powerful than 054A, with only 70% of the latter's displacement. Is 2500 tons really enough?

Jeff your ship has a very "Wordly" design. It would suit a pourpose.

However..ahem..the USN is not going to sink any more $$$$ into any type of LCS design until the whole LCS mess is corrected....

I was actually thinking about this last night, and the design as you have it now is what I was envisioning, except that the Harpoons were launched from canister launchers, there were only 32 VLS cells, and there was also a 20mm CIWS gun, but there was no AEGIS. Since the LCS is supposed to be a corvette geared towards littoral operations including things like delivering personnel and equipment ashore, what is the capacity of this ship?

The LCS program right now is also running into troubles, although not as bad as DDG-1000 and CGX, and this seems to be a theme among current USN programs, although based on their current goals and some of their new doctrines, I'm not surprised, although it is a detriment to the USN. LCS is being cut back in terms of numbers, and I know that the contract for the Lockheed Martin design was cancelled, although they plan on trying again. I'm not sure how well this will all turn out. I think that in the end it will be little more than a one-for-one replacement for the OHP FFGs, except that the ships being corvettes, they will not be quite as capable; this is especially considering what can be done with the OHP hull, considering the upgrades other nations have undertaken which improve their capabilities significantly. While I find this style of corvette intriguing and perhaps valuable in certain numbers, I would still like to see the USN actually replace the frigates, rather than just do away with that vessel type. It should also not be too costly a ship, so that way the commanders won't be afrid to go into harm's way out of the fear of the replacement costs or repair costs.

szbd said:

Yeah, it's very powerful, much more powerful than 054A, with only 70% of the latter's displacement. Is 2500 tons really enough?

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Yes...the existing LCS is 3000 tons and is 30 ft longer with a 3 ft wider beam.

I believe, all of this could be put into a 2500 ton vessel, and that the vessel would be very sea worthy and strong.

bd popeye said:

Jeff your ship has a very "Wordly" design. It would suit a pourpose.

However..ahem..the USN is not going to sink any more $$$$ into any type of LCS design until the whole LCS mess is corrected....

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I believe the program is languishing severely...and I believe if a good program manager could look at such a design as this (or something similar), he/she could make a strong economic (and performance) case for these vessels over the long haul, saving beaucoup dollars while providing superior combat capabilities IMHO.

bigstick61 said:

I was actually thinking about this last night, and the design as you have it now is what I was envisioning, except that the Harpoons were launched from canister launchers, there were only 32 VLS cells, and there was also a 20mm CIWS gun, but there was no AEGIS. Since the LCS is supposed to be a corvette geared towards littoral operations including things like delivering personnel and equipment ashore, what is the capacity of this ship?

The LCS program right now is also running into troubles, although not as bad as DDG-1000 and CGX, and this seems to be a theme among current USN programs, although based on their current goals and some of their new doctrines, I'm not surprised, although it is a detriment to the USN. LCS is being cut back in terms of numbers, and I know that the contract for the Lockheed Martin design was cancelled, although they plan on trying again. I'm not sure how well this will all turn out. I think that in the end it will be little more than a one-for-one replacement for the OHP FFGs, except that the ships being corvettes, they will not be quite as capable; this is especially considering what can be done with the OHP hull, considering the upgrades other nations have undertaken which improve their capabilities significantly. While I find this style of corvette intriguing and perhaps valuable in certain numbers, I would still like to see the USN actually replace the frigates, rather than just do away with that vessel type. It should also not be too costly a ship, so that way the commanders won't be afrid to go into harm's way out of the fear of the replacement costs or repair costs.

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I believe these vessels could be the replacement for the OH Perry class and also fulfill the littoral role.

I view the littoral role more as an ASW and sea fiighting role to clear the littorals of the smaller missile carrying or other combatants so other vessels can deliver men and material to shore. I have never been a proponent of this type of combatant filling that role. We can use other vessels to deliver men and material to shore much more effeciently...we just need to be sure that we have something to clear those waters for their safe passage IMHO.

...and if it is covert operations...then the subs, particularly the new Virginia class as well as the SSGNs and the one Sea Wolf, are much more and better suited for that IMHO.

This vessel is a strong multi-role vessel and can, with the 48 cells, be outfitted through the VLS system for more powerful air defense, more powerful fire support, or more powerful anti-shipping or ASW simply by varying the mix in the cells as opposed to wholly different mission packages. As shown in the pic, they can also be adequately outfitted to fulfill all three if necessary.

In addition, this is not the full AEGIS. This is the Evolved, Advanced Combat System that was an AEGIS-lite type system being proposed for the likes of the ROCN Perry class vessels as opposed to full AEGIS vessels. They ended up taking the KIDD class as a stop gap, but the basic idea of the EACS was a good one and one we could put to effective use ourselves.

I believe these vessels would be stronger than the Perry's or any of their variants by far, they would be as sea worthy...and have enough range to enable them to operate well in an escort role on the high seas, or in the littorals.

Anyhow, IMHO, such a 2500 ton vessel, with these fairly standard systems that we are already putting on other vessels will make them cheaper to build (economies of scale) as well.

szbd said:

Yeah, it's very powerful, much more powerful than 054A, with only 70% of the latter's displacement. Is 2500 tons really enough?

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Ok...I am back to the Mk 110 57mm gun. Why?

Several reasons. It's range is just under that of the 76mm gun but its rate of fire a lot higher, 220 rounds per minute vs. 80 rounds per minute for the 75mm Mk-75. In addition, it is much less "deck penetrating" than the 75mm, and it holds 120 ready rounds (which it can completely reload in two minutes) and has 1000 rounds in the housing.

It's also significantly lighter, and the ammo is so more avanced and capable against a wide variety of targets, particularly more effective against air and is almost a second CIWS in that regard...ranging to 24,000 ft.

So, I am reverting back to the 57mm Mk 110. But, of course, retaining the TLAM capability for the VLS.

I actually think that the 3-inch gun is a good one for this type of vessel. While the 57mm gun puts out more rounds, each round is less effective, and larger projectiles tend to be more versatile. I've been on BAE's site and seen the specs on the 57mm gun, and I must say that for this type, I prefer the 3-incher. The 57mm gun is better suited for CG vessels, patrol combatants, auxiliaries, and as a secondary gun in larger units, in my opinion.