Potential backfire from Google Ban

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
ISA = instruction set architecture

In layman's terms, it is the language of the machine (CPU). When someone write a piece of software, one typically write it in a higher level language like C/C++ (my days), Java, Swift, etc. A software call "compiler" would translate that into machine language (like ARMv9 instruction set).

Huawei can't implement a CPU that can converse in ARMv9 without a proper license. Same principle as no one can produce a CPU that runs x64 (Intel) languange without permission from Intel (which is never)

RISC V is open for everyone to use, just like Linux
Well, it's not going to be called ARMv9 for legal purposes; it could be HUAv1 or something. But are you saying that it is impossible, illegal, or both for Huawei to take the ARMv8 that they have a permanent license to and improve it themselves for future upgrades?

Additional questions:

1. How big a task is it for Huawei to switch from ARM to RISC? Will it involve uprooting all its foundations today?
1a. Does it work with Android or Android forks?

2. How long does it typically take to upgrade ARM version? For example, how long did it take for ARMv8 to develop from 7? 7 from 6? 6 from 5?
2a. When was ARM8 introduced?

3. How significant are the upgrades to user function? For example, if we ran ARM 6 or 7 in a Huawei P30, how much would it suffer?

Thanks
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
OK how hard would that be? I'm mostly reading that Huawei's entire design is based on ARM so moving to RISC V sounds like everything has to be redesigned from the basics. Is that correct or is it much easier than that?

So I added this thought into my last comment after you replied. What do you think about this:

That makes me question whether some other Chinese company can purchase ARM9 and cue Huawei in as to how to improve ARM8 if Huawei is having an issue doing it alone. Obviously they cannot copy or it would be copyright infringement but a push in the right direction, or a blueprint to modify until it can be argued that it is not the same thing can be very helpful I think.

It is a bad idea to move the smartphones out of ARM because of the dependency Android has on that architecture. You also have a vast software library of Android/ARM applications you would need to port. Intel tried competing with ARM a couple years back and it was a total failure.
Where China can replace ARM, if it comes to that, is in servers where that problem is greatly diminished.

Huawei would still need an ARM architecture license to produce and sell chips and products with them outside of China.

But, like I said, I think the news reports we are getting are lots of hyperbole. Most of ARM's development is made in Europe.
Until we know more about what really is the case, in terms of restrictions and limitations, it is too early to tell.

Don't fall into the trap of this media war.

It think it is more likely that ARM will totally drop its operations in the US market than Huawei will get totally blocked from using their technology.
At best some restrictions on use of certain US designs might be made.
 
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We should not that this began on May 16th, before Ren Zhengfei said it wouldn't be a problem.
yeah it's actually interesting
"Ren said it would be "fine" even if Qualcomm and other American suppliers would not sell chips to Huawei. "We have already been preparing for this," he said."
inside
Huawei does not need US chips: CEO on Trump export ban
May 18, 2019
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
yeah it's actually interesting
"Ren said it would be "fine" even if Qualcomm and other American suppliers would not sell chips to Huawei. "We have already been preparing for this," he said."
inside
Huawei does not need US chips: CEO on Trump export ban
May 18, 2019
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Yes, we already know that. The question is when Ren said he was prepared, did he count on losing ARM future licensing too? The sequence in which these events took place seem to suggest yes, but there is no direct confirmation from Ren on ARM.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Well, it's not going to be called ARMv9 for legal purposes; it could be HUAv1 or something. But are you saying that it is impossible, illegal, or both for Huawei to take the ARMv8 that they have a permanent license to and improve it themselves for future upgrades?

Additional questions:

1. How big a task is it for Huawei to switch from ARM to RISC? Will it involve uprooting all its foundations today?

2. How long does it typically take to upgrade ARM version? For example, how long did it take for ARMv8 to develop from 7? 7 from 6? 6 from 5?
2a. When was ARM8 introduced?

3. How significant are the upgrades to user function? For example, if we ran ARM 6 or 7 in a Huawei P30, how much would it suffer?

Thanks

1. I'm only a computer engineer with a software background. Don't have the expertise to answer
2. 2011
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3. Don't know. Some Android apps may require the latest and greatest features (most likely games). However, Android apps are written in Java. Huawei can create a translation layer to make those apps work, but performance is gonna take a hit.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
1. I'm only a computer engineer with a software background. Don't have the expertise to answer
2. 2011
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3. Don't know. Some Android apps may require the latest and greatest features (most likely games). However, Android apps are written in Java. Huawei can create a translation layer to make those apps work, but performance is gonna take a hit.
Thank for your answers. According to your wiki link, ARM is based of off RISC, is that right? So Android OS that works with ARM should also work with RISC, at least with minimal modifications. Is that right?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Android apps are partially written in Java but many applications include ARM machine code too. You will basically need to run that under an emulator. Again, Intel tried doing this by porting Android to x86 and they failed miserably. It had a performance penalty because of the emulation and some applications did not run properly.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
"RISC" basically describes a design methodology for how to design computer chips, namely CPUs.
"ARM" is a RISC architecture.
"RISC V" is another kind of RISC architecture.

The ARM architecture was originally designed in the UK. There are multiple types of ARM licenses you can get. The license basically provides you access to certain patents. You can have an ARM license to a certain ARM architecture (the set of instructions which a processor uses), and/or you can have a license to a certain ARM chip design which is compatible with that architecture. From reading the news licensing the ARM architecture is not in question. What might be in question is licensing ARM chips designs which were made by ARM's US operations. This does not apply to all ARM chip designs. Also, if you design your own chip with an ARM architecture license, you shouldn't be hit by the US embargo. This is the case for the Kunpeng 920 TaiShan core which was developed by HiSilicon. It should not be hit by the US embargo because of that.

I will give you some examples. The ARM Cortex A72 core design was made by ARM's chip design team at Austin, Texas, US. It should be affected by the US embargo on Huawei.
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The ARM Cortex A76 core design was also made at Austin, Texas, US and should be affected by the US embargo on Huawei.
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While the ARM Cortex A73 core design was made by ARM's chip design team at Sophia Antipolis, France. It should not be affected by the US embargo on Huawei.
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Thank for your answers. According to your wiki link, ARM is based of off RISC, is that right? So Android OS that works with ARM should also work with RISC, at least with minimal modifications. Is that right?

RISC (reduced instruction set computer) is a design principle, like Latin based languages. An Italian speaker can't really converse with an English speaker
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
RISC (reduced instruction set computer) is a design principle, like Latin based languages. An Italian speaker can't really converse with an English speaker
So in order to switch from ARM to RISC-V, Huawei essentially has to abandon Android including all forks and redesign an OS around RISC-V, right?

Do you know the answer to this question?
"Is it impossible, illegal, or both for Huawei to take the ARMv8 that they have a permanent license to and improve it themselves for future upgrades?"
 
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