PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

Brumby

Major
They do realize that there has been more than one Chinese dynasties, right?
Historical claims at best is only inchoate. Immemorial possession is highly dependent not only on discovery but effective occupation and administration. There is no historical evidence of continuous administration by China and the Qing Dynasty maps confirmed what is evident regarding China's weak case. The further back in history the claim is based on the weaker the case especially when more recent evidence are contradictory.
Sovereignty claim based on discovery is very problematic and to my knowledge has no legal standing solely on that basis due to a variety of reasons. For example, terra nullius is highly subjective to the argument that there were no competing indigenous population at the assumed point of discovery. In the event of competing claims, historical evidence and facts will prevail. Discovery must be backed up by effective occupation but islands/rocks in the Paracel/Scarborough barely register to qualify for any form of administration.
 
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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Historical claims at best is only inchoate. Immemorial possession is highly dependent not only on discovery but effective occupation and administration. There is no historical evidence of continuous administration by China and the Qing Dynasty maps confirmed what is evident regarding China's weak case. The further back in history the claim is based on the weaker the case especially when more recent evidence are contradictory.
Sovereignty claim based on discovery is very problematic and to my knowledge has no legal standing solely on that basis due to a variety of reasons. For example, terra nullius is highly subjective to the argument that there were no competing indigenous population at the assumed point of discovery. In the event of competing claims, historical evidence and facts will prevail. Discovery must be backed up by effective occupation but islands/rocks in the Paracel/Scarborough barely register to qualify for any form of administration.

Why so called International rules set upon after Colonial Period after everything got divided up?
Why not setup before coloninal period?
classic case of Robbers turning to legit Gentleman with all kinds of high moral talks to legitimizes its new found possessions.
 
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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
The so called international rules or norms after WWII have to taken with grain of salt because its setup after extniguishing the challengers at the time Germany and Japan. The rules or norms are setup after everything got devided up and to constrain future challengers.


So , always reciting those rules and laws only show hypocrisy.
Way to go terra nullius!
 

Brumby

Major
Why so called International rules set upon after Colonial Period after everything got divided up?
Why not setup before coloninal period?
classic case of Robbers turning to legit Gentleman with all kinds of high moral talks to legitimizes its new found possessions.

The so called international rules or norms after WWII have to taken with grain of salt because its setup after extniguishing the challengers at the time Germany and Japan. The rules or norms are setup after everything got devided up and to constrain future challengers.

So , always reciting those rules and laws only show hypocrisy.
Way to go terra nullius!

IMO you are making some incoherent statements which I will not respond directly because I don't understand what you are attempting to convey. I will only make broad statements until you can be more specific with your arguments.

There are limited set ways in which sovereignty can be derived such as with the SCS disputed. China has by its own admission used historic basis to advance its course. Such a position is simply discovery and that can only be connected to the concept of terra nullius. It is a logical and rational conclusion from China's position and not some nebulous western idea that you seem to suggest. If you disagree I suggest that you then articulate China's position as a defence.

The notion of discovery has to meet some conditions to move title from inchoate to sovereign. Some basic conditions are :
(I) The idea of terra nullius means no one else has discovered the islands until China came along. It means that in the immediate vicinity there are no record or evidence of an indigenous community of people who would have preceded China in discovery. This can only be established by historical facts.
(ii)Discovery by itself is insufficient especially if there are already the presence of an indigenous community. As such the evidence of effective occupation is important to demonstrate sovereign over the existence of any competing indigenous community. Sovereign is not simply an abstract thought but intention and will to act as sovereign; and actual exercise or display of such authority. The recently discovered maps from the Qing dynasty demonstrated that China, based on those maps gave up its sovereign intentions or authority over the islands.
(iii)Regardless, China's position on historic basis is weak fundamentally because there are no evidence of historical effective occupation over the rocks. Rationally China never could have because they are predominantly rocks in the midst of the sea and barely register during low tides. In fact the whole idea that China somehow historically administered those rocks is absurd and irrational.

Note I am only using arguments based on historical claims to argue against China's position. I have not invoked any modern day or post WW2 international law as an argument.
 
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Zool

Junior Member
I don't know the legal merit, but China when talking about SCS historical claims does also specify fishing activities and working the waters on and around those islands and reefs for many years, in addition to the discovery aspect. Obviously the strength of that versus people living on completely habitable islands and growing crops is debatable, but it is a part of the case China puts forward.

Apologies for interjecting - will let you guys get back to it.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
The so called international rules or norms after WWII have to taken with grain of salt because its setup after extniguishing the challengers at the time Germany and Japan. The rules or norms are setup after everything got devided up and to constrain future challengers.


So , always reciting those rules and laws only show hypocrisy.
Way to go terra nullius!

Speaking of international rules and norms and hypocrisy and such, here are good shiny examples in recent memory.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


US walked out of ICJ's binding international dispute settlement half way through and blocked vetoed UNSC resolution to act against US (11 to 1, 3 abstentions).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


US didn't contest ICJ jurisdiction on Avena case, but simply refuse to comply with ICJ verdict against US.

Rule based international norms my foot.
 

Brumby

Major
I don't know the legal merit, but China when talking about SCS historical claims does also specify fishing activities and working the waters on and around those islands and reefs for many years, in addition to the discovery aspect. Obviously the strength of that versus people living on completely habitable islands and growing crops is debatable, but it is a part of the case China puts forward.
I am well aware of the traditional fishing ground argument. There are two problems associated with it. One is of facts in that other indigenous community also had been undertaking fishing in the same area historically and so it is simply competing facts. The bigger problem though is fishermen do not constitute or act as a legal agent of sovereign and is intuitively obvious. Appointed state officials conduct sovereign affairs and not fishermen. This rationale is no more than you and I when travelling overseas not having the capacity to conduct affairs on behalf of our government. The fact that fishing was conducted in a certain location does not mean sovereign acts of state are being conducted. There is at least one established international case law on this.
 

ahojunk

Senior Member
Some recent pictures. I am not sure of their dates.

Chigua.赤瓜礁.0.2016-06-03a_island-view.jpg
Chigua Island. It has a distinctive lighthouse.

DongMen.东门礁.0.2016-06-00a_view-dome.jpg
Dongmen Island. I think the white structure is a radar dome. There are a couple of ships docked.

DongMen.东门礁.0.2016-06-00b_building-dome.jpg
Dongmen Island. Picture of the main building and another dome.

DongMen.东门礁.0.2016-06-00c_building-tower.jpg
Dongmen Island. A building and a communications tower.
 
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