PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

crobato · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

A ship is not in the shipyard for almost 4years for nothing. Trust me. So something is being done to the ship.

But then, the same sentences also self answer the question. Why is it at the dock for four years doing nothing?

Precisely---it is doing nothing. They can't seem to decide if they want to scrap it, study it, or actually make use of it.

We have seen the Chinese shipyards build entire warships from scratch in less than a year's time. In all these four years, we have seen Chinese shipyards pound out one destroyer after another, one frigate after another, one stealthy missile boat after another, one sub after another, the last as fast as one sub every four months.

And yet all this time, the hulk is just sitting there and many pictures do show the lack of intense activity that accompanies PLAN warships under construction. Just walking distance away, two large destroyers are being built with S-300 missile complexes and large long range antiship missiles, all in a much faster time.

PLABUDDY · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

China does not have any experience in constructing aircraft carriers. Therefore they will have to do work on Varyag little by little. The destroyers and other smaller warships were built at a much faster speed because China has experience in building such warships. :china:

Deleted member 675 · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

bd popeye said:
Just tell the truth PRC. The PRC should not worry about what old Rummy and other nations may think. They have the right to arm themselves as they see fit...The Japanese have those LST's and is building those DDH(LPH) type ships..And S. Korea is building 4 (I think) LPX ships....So now it appears that the PRC may be re-fitting an old Russian CV for it's own pourpose..That's their business. The do have to protect 1,300,000,000 people.

The South Korean plans to build such vessels and the Japanese DDH/LPH types don't compare to fitting Varyag out and making her operational. If China wants to do it then no one is going to take any action to stop it. But China had better be prepared for South Korea and Japan to make their own non-helo carriers as well.

So it depends what China wants more - having such carriers or SK & Japan not having them. Also China would certainly cry "wolf" if Japan had a vessel like that before China did, so it can't pretend that reservations about Varyag being completed would be unjustified/there wouldn't be any.

And obviously the Chinese government is sensitive about how other nations view it, as it plays games with the value of its military budget. If it didn't care it would just come out and give the real figures.

Jeff Head · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

bd popeye said:
Just tell the truth PRC. The PRC should not worry about what old Rummy and other nations may think....it appears that the PRC may be re-fitting an old Russian CV for it's own pourpose..That's their business. The do have to protect 1,300,000,000 people.

Well here is a picture of a "model" of what the PRC hopes to attain...too bad it is only a model. I am looking for more recent pics of the Varyag itself today and will post them if I find them.

KYli · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

FuManChu said:
The South Korean plans to build such vessels and the Japanese DDH/LPH types don't compare to fitting Varyag out and making her operational. If China wants to do it then no one is going to take any action to stop it. But China had better be prepared for South Korea and Japan to make their own non-helo carriers as well.

So it depends what China wants more - having such carriers or SK & Japan not having them. Also China would certainly cry "wolf" if Japan had a vessel like that before China did, so it can't pretend that reservations about Varyag being completed would be unjustified/there wouldn't be any.

And obviously the Chinese government is sensitive about how other nations view it, as it plays games with the value of its military budget. If it didn't care it would just come out and give the real figures.

The South Korean plans and Japanese DDH types are much more powerful than anything China had, and did China cry wolf

. It does not matter if China is fitting out Varyag and making it operational, for south Korea and Japan the helo carriers are what they need now. Like you said if China want to have it own carriers, nobody could stop China. Same logic for Korea, if they want to have real carrier they could have it. Off course, they need help from US to build something worthwhile. Japan will need to make change to Article 9, and have blessing of US. Asians coutry will certainly against it, but if USA supports Japan that it will not be matter. no matter what China does, Japan and Korea will fellow their own path and need for their future plans.

Chinese government is sensitive about other nations, because for some negative perspection form US and others. That if Chinese build up of military is a threat to the world. Even if China come out with more accurate figure for their military budget, US and Japan will still cry wolf. And they will say this figure is still underestimate, so why do you think China will need to do something so stupid for the sake of more threat talk.

The funny thing is India and many others nation already have Aircraft carriers, but some how China should not have them. The truth is that even for the last ten years China had been modernized its' military force, China still is a defensive force.

Deleted member 675 · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

KYli said:
The South Korean plans and Japanese DDH types are much more powerful than anything China had, and did China cry wolf

I'm not exactly sure how a destroyer that can operate four helos is a real threat to China - certainly of a kind that would require a completed Varyag. Equally plenty of Chinese have thrown their weight around about how good the Sovs (and some "Aegis-like" destroyers) are. But never mind.

no matter what China does, Japan and Korea will fellow their own path and need for their future plans.

I'm not so sure. I certainly do not think that Japan would change Article 9 to permit non-helo carriers if China had no carriers itself. If it did then of course China would be justified building its own. But really I think it will be the other way around - so that's why I said it depends what China wants more.

And I doubt Asian nations will really complain about Japan if China makes the jump first. Joint criticism of both countries perhaps, but they're not going to ignore China.

Even if China come out with more accurate figure for their military budget, US and Japan will still cry wolf.

But other people will not believe them, because organisations like SIPRI and RAND will agree with it. While China undervalues its budget the large exaggerations by the US will have credance. If they come out with the real figure then the US will only have its own figures to rely upon, with trusted internationally recognised organisations disagreeing with them. That will undermine the "China threat" theory, as people will be able to see how it is exaggerated.

Of course it may be that China's budget is higher than what SIPRI estimates, so it would be too embarrassing to admit the real figure. After all if it hasn't already overtaken Japan's, it would soon do, undermining the POV pushed in China that Japan is the "militarist" nation in Asia and not China. I laugh every time I see someone refer to the "Japanese war machine". Aha, that would be the country that doesn't have much, if any, semblance of an offensive capability...........

Really I think that China is too stuck-in-the-mud believing that secracy is better than honesty, especially when it is bloody obvious that the lie has been exposed! Honesty is often the best policy, so it's a shame Beijing doesn't realise this.

The funny thing is India and many others nation already have Aircraft carriers, but some how China should not have them. The truth is that even for the last ten years China had been modernized its' military force, China still is a defensive force.

It has far more offensive capability than the Japanese (and what about the Koreans?).

As I have said, no one says that China CAN'T have carriers. The issue is whether it is a good idea. So the Thais have a carrier. You'll have to excuse me, but I don't see that as much of an asset. And although the Indians indeed do have carriers, certain geographical obstacles make the chance of an Indian-Sino naval clash highly unlikely, especially as India does not have any territorial claims on the eastern side of the Straits.

China would be wrong to believe that its neighbours will definitely build large jet carriers regardless of what it does. If they really want one then fair enough, but they have to be prepared for their neighbours to operate them as well in such a scenario.

KYli · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

FuManChu said:
I'm not exactly sure how a destroyer that can operate four helos is a real threat to China, but never mind.

I never said it is threat, but China certainly does not have anything more powerful.:china:

FuManChu said:
I'm not so sure. I certainly do not think that Japan would change Article 9 to permit non-helo carriers if China had no carriers itself. If it did then of course China would be justified building its own. But really I think it will be the other way around - so that's why I said it depends what China wants more.

I am not sure also, but you can not guarantee Japan wouldn't change Article 9 also. What I see is that Japan is trying to over blown China threat to Justifield to change Ariticle 9.:roll:

And I doubt Asian nations will really complain about Japan if China makes the jump first. Joint criticism of both countries perhaps, but they're not going to ignore China.

If Japan trys to change Article 9, then Asian nations will complain, but off course China will also come upon pressure when China became more powerful.

But other people will not believe them, because organisations like SIPRI and RAND will agree with it. While China undervalues its budget the exaggerations have credance.

I doubt that would matter, people choose what they believe. SIPRI and RAND have some credibility, but they would come under pressure to inflate the number. China may undervalues its budget, but even the budget is not undervalues. People could still accuse China by saying some non military programs have to do with military, so it should be also consider as military. China threat thoery will not dead not until downfall of China.

It has far more offensive capability than the Japanese (and what about the Koreans?).

China may have more offensive capability than Japanese, but Chinese Navy still is inferior than Japan.

As I have said, no one says that China CAN'T have carriers. The issue is whether it is a good idea. So the Thais have a carrier. You'll have to excuse me, but I don't see that as much of an asset. And although the Indians indeed do have carriers, certain geographical obstacles make the chance of an Indian-Sino naval clash highly unlikely, especially as India does not have any territorial claims on the eastern side of the Straits.

I never said Chinese carriers have anything to do with India, what I said is Why India is allow but China should not be. The issue is whether or not China could satify US and Japan, Aircraft Carriers is an issue, but there are also many other things. So are you suggest China should back down each time just because Japan complaints about it. As you said carriers might not be useful in certain situation, so why Japan make a fuss about it.

China would be wrong to believe that its neighbours will definitely build large jet carriers regardless of what it does. If they really want one then fair enough, but they have to be prepared for their neighbours to operate them as well in such a scenario.

Does it matter what China believe, when need and ability came. Many Asian countries will have their carriers, and I seriously doubt China could do a thing about it. I think China have prepared for reaction if they did build their carriers, the only exception is Japan. Will Japan uses it as an excuse for override the Article 9.

Deleted member 675 · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

Ok, the new ships might be better than any single ship in the PLAN flotilla. Though I'm sure the ultra-nationalists would still say the Sovs rule!

KYli said:
What I see is that Japan is trying to over blown China threat to Justifield to change Ariticle 9

I think that's a slight misunderstanding. Article 9 as it stands makes it very difficult for Japan to do any peacekeeping - who heard of peacekeepers not being able to help other nations' troops? There are probably some people that try to use the China threat as a means of changing things, but others are concerned about the PRC so feel the need to make the reforms.

SIPRI and RAND have some credibility, but they would come under pressure to inflate the number.......China threat thoery will not dead not until downfall of China.

I'm sure they're under pressure to move them towards the DoD's estimates, but it doesn't work. And I'm sure that most people will be able to get along with China if certain issues are dealt with. I don't believe that China will always be feared until it is invaded. There's no need to feel to sceptical. Some people might never change their attitudes, but one could say the same about Japan - that some people will never stop fearing Japan (which is what ultra-nationalists say - "why change when it won't ever be good enough for them?")

China may have more offensive capability than Japanese, but Chinese Navy still is inferior than Japan.

True. Though as the JSMDF is very defensive that should be put in perspective.

I never said Chinese carriers have anything to do with India, what I said is Why India is allow but China should not be. The issue is whether or not China could satify US and Japan, Aircraft Carriers is an issue, but there are also many other things. So are you suggest China should back down each time just because Japan complaints about it. As you said carriers might not be useful in certain situation, so why Japan make a fuss about it.

Sorry, I wasn't sure why you were mentioning India. Even if it is inevitable that Asian countries all get carriers, what I don't want to see is that happening while regional relations are at their current state - i.e. mutual suspicion. For example there are many aircraft carriers in Europe but we don't care because we're really comfortable with each other.

It would be prudent for China to understand the technology behind the carriers, but there is no need to build them yet. If another country started building them, chances are China would know about it - they might even publicly state it. Much better to play it safe and not be the first one to kick start a carrier-building programme in South-East/East Asia, so that perhaps relations between everyone in the region could be improved first.

KYli · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

FuManChu said:
Ok, the new ships might be better than any single ship in the PLAN flotilla. Though I'm sure the ultra-nationalists would still say the Sovs rule!

:rofl: .

I think that's a slight misunderstanding. Article 9 as it stands makes it very difficult for Japan to do any peacekeeping - who heard of peacekeepers not being able to help other nations' troops? There are probably some people that try to use the China threat as a means of changing things, but others are concerned about the PRC so feel the need to make the reforms.

I don't agree, maybe most Japanese do not care. But there are many politicals in Japan want to change Article 9, and what is the best way to acheive. THREAT from NK and china, and what is the best way to label a country a threat. Simple, do something to make that country angry, and call the reaction from that particular country a THREAT.:roll:

I'm sure they're under pressure to move them towards the DoD's estimates, but it doesn't work. And I'm sure that most people will be able to get along with China if certain issues are dealt with. I don't believe that China will always be feared until it is invaded. There's no need to feel to sceptical. Some people might never change their attitudes, but one could say the same about Japan - that some people will never stop fearing Japan (which is what ultra-nationalists say - "why change when it won't ever be good enough for them?")
True. Though as the JSMDF is very defensive that should be put in perspective.

As long as they could convince some people, and confuse the others. Then it is going to work.

Ultra nationalists did not fear Japan, they hate Japan. And I did fear or hate Japan, but I certainly don't like the way some Japanese trying to whitewash the history.

JSMDF might be defensive force, but it is one of most powerful navy in the world.

Sorry, I wasn't sure why you were mentioning India. Even if it is inevitable that Asian countries all get carriers, what I don't want to see is that happening while regional relations are at their current state - i.e. mutual suspicion. For example there are many aircraft carriers in Europe but we don't care because we're really comfortable with each other.

I doubt by delaying the carriers project, can lower the tension of east Asia. I agreed that all east Asian nations should do more toward the peace, but I am negative about the future.

A rise of a power will always reset the balance of influence. That utimately create tension, negotication might have lower the tension, but suspious will always persist. That why US and Japan are trying to label China as a threat, and they will sounding alarm from now on.

It would be prudent for China to understand the technology behind the carriers, but there is no need to build them yet. If another country started building them, chances are China would know about it - they might even publicly state it. Much better to play it safe and not be the first one to kick start a carrier-building programme in South-East/East Asia, so that perhaps relations between everyone in the region could be improved first.

You need to build a carrier in order to understanding it. You need to operate a carrier in order to truely know how. By the time another country started to build the system, that will be rather late. China do not want to play catch up.

darth sidious · Feb 11, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

FuManChu said:
Ok, the new ships might be better than any single ship in the PLAN flotilla. Though I'm sure the ultra-nationalists would still say the Sovs rule!
I think that's a slight misunderstanding. Article 9 as it stands makes it very difficult for Japan to do any peacekeeping - who heard of peacekeepers not being able to help other nations' troops? There are probably some people that try to use the China threat as a means of changing things, but others are concerned about the PRC so feel the need to make the reforms.
I'm sure they're under pressure to move them towards the DoD's estimates, but it doesn't work. And I'm sure that most people will be able to get along with China if certain issues are dealt with. I don't believe that China will always be feared until it is invaded. There's no need to feel to sceptical. Some people might never change their attitudes, but one could say the same about Japan - that some people will never stop fearing Japan (which is what ultra-nationalists say - "why change when it won't ever be good enough for them?")
True. Though as the JSMDF is very defensive that should be put in perspective.Sorry, I wasn't sure why you were mentioning India. Even if it is inevitable that Asian countries all get carriers, what I don't want to see is that happening while regional relations are at their current state - i.e. mutual suspicion. For example there are many aircraft carriers in Europe but we don't care because we're really comfortable with each other.
It would be prudent for China to understand the technology behind the carriers, but there is no need to build them yet. If another country started building them, chances are China would know about it - they might even publicly state it. Much better to play it safe and not be the first one to kick start a carrier-building programme in South-East/East Asia, so that perhaps relations between everyone in the region could be improved first.

Fumanchu AKA Musashi we are not intrested in another china V.S japan thread such political discussion the forum rules makes it preety clear

japan seeks to actively hide its military strength if you notice 1000ton kogos are labled as "frigate" by the japos

right now every major japo ship carriers anti-sub missiles when china dont have any. right now they have the most powerful navy in asia and the best asw force

look up the commission date for jap ships and you will find they are alought newer then old ludas china has

the newest chinese destroyer carrier about 48 HQ-9 sam when the japo kogo carrieers 96

they have acces to the latest american tech not to mention the protection of the americans what do they have to fear from a old soviet carrier naval flankers can not even carry large load when using the ski-jump system

they already have many LPH type ships and a very strong sub fleet the chinese navy is inferior in every aspect !

does japan reely need such a navy for "self defence"

right now china must doudle her efforts at creating a blue water fleet to break through the island chain

PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

crobato

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PLABUDDY

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Jeff Head

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KYli

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Deleted member 675

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KYli

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Deleted member 675

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KYli

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darth sidious

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