PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Those are some good images. Pops what do you think of the Helmets and Safety gear? Looks like heering protection, possibly fire retardant fabrics.
The helmet looks like it only protects the foreword portion of the head.
Goggles look like they offer dust protection I am not sure about much else.

The PLAN has top notch gear. The helmets are basically a duplicate of USN flight deck helmets. They do protect the back of the head. Look closely. As for the goggles. They look fine to me.

Compare with the USN. Barely any difference. The man in the middle is a helo air-crewman.

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ATLANTIC OCEAN (Feb. 15, 2014) Sailors aboard the amphibious transport dock ship USS Mesa Verde (LPD 19) test fuel before flight operations. (U.S. Navy photo by Seaman Phylicia A. Hanson/Released)
 

aquauant

Junior Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Probably a master O-2 shutoff, in case of burn-through or flames????

I think it is the purge button of a regulator to the full face mask. Like scuba regulator, it has a purge valve to manually blast the air into the mask to give air or remove obstructions in the regulator like vomit..etc. The bottle is only air. It cannot be O2 because O2 is highly combustible, especially in firefighting.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

There is no such thing as being "rich enough" no one is ever rich enough certainly no defence budget is rich enough

When you have big navy bringing down the unit cost is paramount

It costs in excess of $7 million per day to keep a carrier strike group deployed on average if you have 4 CSG deployed per year which is typical of the USN that's more than $10 billion in operating costs alone let alone the overhauls and mid life upgrades

This is for a 4 Nimitz Class the price for 4 Ford Class would be 10% lower due it's better efficiency in fact a Ford Class over a 50 year cycle has a $4 billion saving over a 11 carrier fleet that's $44 billion in savings pretty much equivalent to 3-4 x Ford Class so you are getting 11 carriers for the price of 7-8

All electric system, EMALS and the absence of steam makes ships much more efficient which has long term benifits all world navy's knows this and everyone is getting intelligent how to save money while increasing the capability

Liaoning is not the best design and it's not most efficient so Chinas next carrier will bridge these gaps

Cats and Traps or EMALS for Chinas next carrier? Well that question no one knows I have tried to highlight the benifits of the latter

I think that is another issue you are talking about. - which in this case I would disagree that EMAL makes a ship more efficient.

But back to the point I was making, there is no hurt in taking insurance of developing a mature technology when there is uncertainty in the new technology. Every new technology sounds dandy and sweet but are always risks involved. Lets just take a very arbitrary fictitious case that if EMALs are successfully developed and some nerd found a way to track the magnetic signature - which people have been working on for a long time given the studies into shark's magnetic sensing (and that a magnetic field sufficient to launch a plane is quite powerful); would it not be a good to have backup to steam catapults?

We don't know if EMAL will have some crippling flaw, why not develop backup as an insurance? hey it could be a couple of a billion dollars, but compared to the cost of a possibly compromised carrier fleet?

Back to the question of efficiency; back to thermodynamic 101 "work" goes down a usefulness cascade; general rule is that the less levels of cascade, the more exergy is availble and less anergy is developed.

A nuclear reactor, steam catapult system follows this energy cascade:

Nuclear energy -> Thermal energy -> work

A nuclear reactor, EMALs system follows:

Nuclear energy -> Thermal Energy -> Electrical Energy -> work

practically speaking, EMALs maybe more efficient than last generation steam catapults, due to higher efficiency reactors, accumulators, generators and heat ex changers; but it would not be more efficient than a steam system built with the latest and the greatest technology.

Regarding the Ford/Nimitz study, well, all I can say is that all new hardware is supposed to be cheaper and do the job better than the previous generation; but my question is how many of these are within estimates? F35 is a classic example. So I will only take it as a grain of salt.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

From Type 052, PLAN went through interim classes of 051B and 052B before getting to 052C design. If PLAN is that concerned about not having separated logistic systems, it would have just went straight from 052 to 052C. It would also not have gotten 051C class.
Well, that's the thing: the 051C are next in line in the rank of white elephants after the Sovremenny-class. They are good illustrations as to why it is a bad idea to rush producing a ship when new technologies are becoming readied in just a few years.

An aircraft carrier requires much more investments and industrial supports than a destroyer, has a lifespan nearly doubles to that of a destroyer, and with no such thing as production volume. These pretty much force great leaps between each hull. The development strategy used on destroyers just isn't going to work when it comes to aircraft carriers.

They are maintaining 4 different types of VLS. By the time they built the first carrier, if STEAM catapult is ready and EMAL is not, they will go with STEAM. They aren't going to worry that the STEAM catapult might only appear on one carrier.
How many ships built in the past 10 years carry VLS? How many CATOBAR carriers do you realistically expect China to be able to build in the next 10 years? These two situations are not even comparable.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Back to the question of efficiency; back to thermodynamic 101 "work" goes down a usefulness cascade; general rule is that the less levels of cascade, the more exergy is availble and less anergy is developed.

A nuclear reactor, steam catapult system follows this energy cascade:

Nuclear energy -> Thermal energy -> work

A nuclear reactor, EMALs system follows:

Nuclear energy -> Thermal Energy -> Electrical Energy -> work

practically speaking, EMALs maybe more efficient than last generation steam catapults, due to higher efficiency reactors, accumulators, generators and heat ex changers; but it would not be more efficient than a steam system built with the latest and the greatest technology.

In case of catapults, energy efficiency is not such a big concern, especially on nuclear powered ships. EMALs are revolutionary because (theoretically :D ) they have smaller size then steam cats, need less maintenance, have even acceleration and could launch heavier or lighter aircraft then steam cats .
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Well, that's the thing: the 051C are next in line in the rank of white elephants after the Sovremenny-class. They are good illustrations as to why it is a bad idea to rush producing a ship when new technologies are becoming readied in just a few years.

An aircraft carrier requires much more investments and industrial supports than a destroyer, has a lifespan nearly doubles to that of a destroyer, and with no such thing as production volume. These pretty much force great leaps between each hull. The development strategy used on destroyers just isn't going to work when it comes to aircraft carriers.


How many ships built in the past 10 years carry VLS? How many CATOBAR carriers do you realistically expect China to be able to build in the next 10 years? These two situations are not even comparable.

Again, I think if the PLAN wants nuclear carriers that displace far more than the Liaoning, maintaining steam cats and EMALS at the same time may not be that big a deal, since they'd have to worry about maintenance and refit of two different classes anyways.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

In case of catapults, energy efficiency is not such a big concern, especially on nuclear powered ships. EMALs are revolutionary because (theoretically :D ) they have smaller size then steam cats, need less maintenance, have even acceleration and could launch heavier or lighter aircraft then steam cats .

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't thermal-->electrical-->work be more efficient than thermal-->work? It's not just the cascade, but how efficient each conversion is to the next.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Well, that's the thing: the 051C are next in line in the rank of white elephants after the Sovremenny-class. They are good illustrations as to why it is a bad idea to rush producing a ship when new technologies are becoming readied in just a few years.

Well, by your logic, no one would ever build any warships , because there is always some new technology waiting around corner. :D I agree that you should "freeze" some designs for mass production in case of war , but in peacetime small series of stop-gap weapons are common thing. They serve to keep balance of power and to gradually expand own technological and industrial base .
 

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

There is absolutely nothing NOTHING wrong with using steam cats.

So what if it's a tech that decades old? it has worked very well for the last 50 and will work just fine for the next 50....it's not an 'active' system per se where it needs be be upgraded to support or combat future threats etc like say a weapon system, radar, sensors or some electronic gizmo.
The issue isn't whether there is something wrong with steam catapults. The issue is whether it is worthwhile to lock an ultra expensive hull to steam catapults and cough up money for a dedicated logistical system for the next 50 years.

Prop fighters worked very well in the WWII, too. However, technologies that work well in the past does not mean they are equally good for the future.

Even in the USN the last Nimitiz class carrier will continue sailing the high seas for another 30 years before it's replaced by a Ford so USN herself will continue using steam cats for a very long time. If PLAN puts steam cat on a newly built carrier with a lifespan of 30-50 years there is still no reason to swapped it out for EMALS at a later date.

Like you said it's potentially another 10 years before China builds their own indigenous carrier. At that time they may likely put EMALS on her because the tech would have been fully understood and tested for mainline system but for now it is totally acceptable IMHO putting regular steam cats on Liaoning #2 or even #3.
First, if steam catapult is so good, then there would be no point in switching to EMALS on the Ford Class at all. The fact that Ford Class will feature EMALS highlights the weakness of your arguments.

Second, catapult isn't just a cylinder sitting within a trench on the deck, but a system which includes a network of piping and tanks within the ship. Once a carrier goes with steam catapults, swapping them out for EMALS will be like doing blood vessels transplant -- not something possible. So, if PLAN goes with steam catapults now, PLAN would be forced to use this technology for the next 50 years. Worse, PLAN would have to build dedicated logistical support around this one single hull, and that's bad, very very bad. This is the biggest problem of going with steam catapults.

Third, the Nimitz class are forced to use steam catapults until their retirement. There is no way around this. Luckily for the USN, there are enough of them to spread out the logistical cost. China will have no such luxury. So whether Nimitz class will stick with steam catapults has no relevance here.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

I don't agree, steam cats can easily be insurance even if EMAL is the main push. Honestly, why not put some money in R&D or espionage for a mid last century technology; it is not going to be expensive. Why risk having EMAL fail with no alternative?

Whether it is steam catapult or EMAL, it is still new technology to PLAN. Steam catapult is not an insurance for EMAL. The real insurance is the ski jump.

it is just risk management and China is obviously rich enough and having sufficient skilled people to do it.
No one is ever "rich enough" when it comes to aircraft carrier.
 
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