PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Have any of you members or visitors ever read the first 10-12 pages of this thread? It is aweswome. Great discussion. I invite all to re-read those pages.

So..Now we know that the PLAN now has access to shipyard that can build an aircraft carrier of some type. I really do wish the PLAN was not so secreretive and would give us a hint about what they will do about their "phantom" CV program.

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?

Proposed PLAN CV

Click to expand...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Have any of you members or visitors ever read the first 10-12 pages of this thread? It is aweswome. Great discussion. I invite all to re-read those pages.

So..Now we know that the PLAN now has access to shipyard that can build an aircraft carrier of some type. I really do wish the PLAN was not so secreretive and would give us a hint about what they will do about their "phantom" CV program.

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?

Proposed PLAN CV

Click to expand...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

.....

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?
..

Click to expand...

crawl - walk - run
at first they will pretty sure don't start with big sticks. It is a great investment, and a failure would be very expansiv;
and at first they would copy a proofed design, as I think.

Now chinese naval ingeneerts studied the design of MELBOURNE, KIEW - MINSK an VARJAG.

The VARJAG, indeed, is to be finished - as a trainee carrier like a lot of people suspect. In my view the ship could be seaworthy in 2009/2010 - and the first crews could be well up in 2014/2015 ...
for the birds:
usable should be JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter (ASW) and KA-31 AEW Helos - and SU-33, but those not before 2014/2015.

But after that step?
The need of PLAN is
= support of amphibious operations (local air shield)
= escort of trade ships like tankers
= at least counter other carriers in case of conflict with a great super power.

Crawl - walk - run:

To minimize the risk, at first indegenious design I'll prefer a small Carrier, to operate JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter for support und transport operations. Also ASW and KA-31 AEW Helos to support a local air shield.
This would be a amphibious carrier.
The carrier could be a derivate of the proofed MELBOURNE design, including modern engines (diesels), catapulte and angled deck. This little carrier also in political view is no a big thread to SE-Asien neighbours, so they would accept this kind of carrier without political rejection.

To operate the JL-15 would be indeed also a training for using big fighters like the (suspected) SU-33 with the future "big stick".
I'll prefer 2 or 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2009/2010 and finished in 2014/2015 (production continuing).

The next step - this is more speculation - should be for escort-operations.
In my opinion the KIEW / MINSK-Design is pretty sure a famous escort-carrier.
There (modernized) weapons (including ASW und AEW helos like the KA-31) and - if a catapult would be installed - the possibilty to operate carrier based fighters (J-XX? - double engined J-10 ?) and carrier based AEW planes would make a great escort service.


I also prefer 2 - 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2012 and finished in 2016/2017 up to 2020.

only as the last step I see carriers like bd popeye postet - but (indeed) with angled deck and catapulte!! or starting to be build in 2015 or later and not operationale before 2020. If chinese ingeneers want to work with the experience of the first carriers, they would'nt start to design this ship before 2015 - better 2020 I think.
I don't speculate about the fighters and helos, usable at this time ...

So in 2020 / 2025 the first chinese carrier fleet could include:
1 trainee carrier (Varjag) - operating JL 15, SU-33, Z-8 ASW and KA-31 AEW
3 to 5 amphibous carriers (Melbourne derivate) - operating JL-15, WZ-10, Z-8, KA-31 AEW
3 escort carriers (Kiew derivate) operating Z-8 ASW, KA-31 AEW (if catapulte also JL-15, J-xx)
1 indegenious "big stick" - operating SU-33, J-xx, ASW and AEW helos and aircrafts.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

.....

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?
..

Click to expand...

crawl - walk - run
at first they will pretty sure don't start with big sticks. It is a great investment, and a failure would be very expansiv;
and at first they would copy a proofed design, as I think.

Now chinese naval ingeneerts studied the design of MELBOURNE, KIEW - MINSK an VARJAG.

The VARJAG, indeed, is to be finished - as a trainee carrier like a lot of people suspect. In my view the ship could be seaworthy in 2009/2010 - and the first crews could be well up in 2014/2015 ...
for the birds:
usable should be JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter (ASW) and KA-31 AEW Helos - and SU-33, but those not before 2014/2015.

But after that step?
The need of PLAN is
= support of amphibious operations (local air shield)
= escort of trade ships like tankers
= at least counter other carriers in case of conflict with a great super power.

Crawl - walk - run:

To minimize the risk, at first indegenious design I'll prefer a small Carrier, to operate JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter for support und transport operations. Also ASW and KA-31 AEW Helos to support a local air shield.
This would be a amphibious carrier.
The carrier could be a derivate of the proofed MELBOURNE design, including modern engines (diesels), catapulte and angled deck. This little carrier also in political view is no a big thread to SE-Asien neighbours, so they would accept this kind of carrier without political rejection.

To operate the JL-15 would be indeed also a training for using big fighters like the (suspected) SU-33 with the future "big stick".
I'll prefer 2 or 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2009/2010 and finished in 2014/2015 (production continuing).

The next step - this is more speculation - should be for escort-operations.
In my opinion the KIEW / MINSK-Design is pretty sure a famous escort-carrier.
There (modernized) weapons (including ASW und AEW helos like the KA-31) and - if a catapult would be installed - the possibilty to operate carrier based fighters (J-XX? - double engined J-10 ?) and carrier based AEW planes would make a great escort service.


I also prefer 2 - 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2012 and finished in 2016/2017 up to 2020.

only as the last step I see carriers like bd popeye postet - but (indeed) with angled deck and catapulte!! or starting to be build in 2015 or later and not operationale before 2020. If chinese ingeneers want to work with the experience of the first carriers, they would'nt start to design this ship before 2015 - better 2020 I think.
I don't speculate about the fighters and helos, usable at this time ...

So in 2020 / 2025 the first chinese carrier fleet could include:
1 trainee carrier (Varjag) - operating JL 15, SU-33, Z-8 ASW and KA-31 AEW
3 to 5 amphibous carriers (Melbourne derivate) - operating JL-15, WZ-10, Z-8, KA-31 AEW
3 escort carriers (Kiew derivate) operating Z-8 ASW, KA-31 AEW (if catapulte also JL-15, J-xx)
1 indegenious "big stick" - operating SU-33, J-xx, ASW and AEW helos and aircrafts.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

.....

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?
..

Click to expand...

crawl - walk - run
at first they will pretty sure don't start with big sticks. It is a great investment, and a failure would be very expansiv;
and at first they would copy a proofed design, as I think.

Now chinese naval ingeneerts studied the design of MELBOURNE, KIEW - MINSK an VARJAG.

The VARJAG, indeed, is to be finished - as a trainee carrier like a lot of people suspect. In my view the ship could be seaworthy in 2009/2010 - and the first crews could be well up in 2014/2015 ...
for the birds:
usable should be JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter (ASW) and KA-31 AEW Helos - and SU-33, but those not before 2014/2015.

But after that step?
The need of PLAN is
= support of amphibious operations (local air shield)
= escort of trade ships like tankers
= at least counter other carriers in case of conflict with a great super power.

Crawl - walk - run:

To minimize the risk, at first indegenious design I'll prefer a small Carrier, to operate JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter for support und transport operations. Also ASW and KA-31 AEW Helos to support a local air shield.
This would be a amphibious carrier.
The carrier could be a derivate of the proofed MELBOURNE design, including modern engines (diesels), catapulte and angled deck. This little carrier also in political view is no a big thread to SE-Asien neighbours, so they would accept this kind of carrier without political rejection.

To operate the JL-15 would be indeed also a training for using big fighters like the (suspected) SU-33 with the future "big stick".
I'll prefer 2 or 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2009/2010 and finished in 2014/2015 (production continuing).

The next step - this is more speculation - should be for escort-operations.
In my opinion the KIEW / MINSK-Design is pretty sure a famous escort-carrier.
There (modernized) weapons (including ASW und AEW helos like the KA-31) and - if a catapult would be installed - the possibilty to operate carrier based fighters (J-XX? - double engined J-10 ?) and carrier based AEW planes would make a great escort service.


I also prefer 2 - 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2012 and finished in 2016/2017 up to 2020.

only as the last step I see carriers like bd popeye postet - but (indeed) with angled deck and catapulte!! or starting to be build in 2015 or later and not operationale before 2020. If chinese ingeneers want to work with the experience of the first carriers, they would'nt start to design this ship before 2015 - better 2020 I think.
I don't speculate about the fighters and helos, usable at this time ...

So in 2020 / 2025 the first chinese carrier fleet could include:
1 trainee carrier (Varjag) - operating JL 15, SU-33, Z-8 ASW and KA-31 AEW
3 to 5 amphibous carriers (Melbourne derivate) - operating JL-15, WZ-10, Z-8, KA-31 AEW
3 escort carriers (Kiew derivate) operating Z-8 ASW, KA-31 AEW (if catapulte also JL-15, J-xx)
1 indegenious "big stick" - operating SU-33, J-xx, ASW and AEW helos and aircrafts.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Will partially agree with Sczepan, although I would be inclined to consider that the PLAN has already passed through - or is in the midst of passing through - a few stages in carrier development. Studying HMAS Melbourne and two of the former Kiev-class carriers are obviously important for starters; but the construction of the Type 71 amphibious assault ship is a big concrete step forward, even considering the vast differences between aircraft carriers and amphibs. Couple the last to the PLAN's study and refurbishment of the former Varyag, and it may well be that China is ready to engage in full-scale construction of a fleet carrier.

Operation of course is an entirely different matter, and even if Varyag were to be completed and enter full service as an operational training ship within the next couple of years, it seems almost inconceivable that any new-built carrier or carriers could be properly manned and operated even at the most rudimentary level for at least a decade from now. But if and when that happens, the new-builds will almost certainly be CTOL/CATOBAR. If there is an intermediate stage, that will be Varyag itself with STOBAR, but not the new builds.

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).:coffee:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Will partially agree with Sczepan, although I would be inclined to consider that the PLAN has already passed through - or is in the midst of passing through - a few stages in carrier development. Studying HMAS Melbourne and two of the former Kiev-class carriers are obviously important for starters; but the construction of the Type 71 amphibious assault ship is a big concrete step forward, even considering the vast differences between aircraft carriers and amphibs. Couple the last to the PLAN's study and refurbishment of the former Varyag, and it may well be that China is ready to engage in full-scale construction of a fleet carrier.

Operation of course is an entirely different matter, and even if Varyag were to be completed and enter full service as an operational training ship within the next couple of years, it seems almost inconceivable that any new-built carrier or carriers could be properly manned and operated even at the most rudimentary level for at least a decade from now. But if and when that happens, the new-builds will almost certainly be CTOL/CATOBAR. If there is an intermediate stage, that will be Varyag itself with STOBAR, but not the new builds.

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).:coffee:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Will partially agree with Sczepan, although I would be inclined to consider that the PLAN has already passed through - or is in the midst of passing through - a few stages in carrier development. Studying HMAS Melbourne and two of the former Kiev-class carriers are obviously important for starters; but the construction of the Type 71 amphibious assault ship is a big concrete step forward, even considering the vast differences between aircraft carriers and amphibs. Couple the last to the PLAN's study and refurbishment of the former Varyag, and it may well be that China is ready to engage in full-scale construction of a fleet carrier.

Operation of course is an entirely different matter, and even if Varyag were to be completed and enter full service as an operational training ship within the next couple of years, it seems almost inconceivable that any new-built carrier or carriers could be properly manned and operated even at the most rudimentary level for at least a decade from now. But if and when that happens, the new-builds will almost certainly be CTOL/CATOBAR. If there is an intermediate stage, that will be Varyag itself with STOBAR, but not the new builds.

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).:coffee:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).

Click to expand...

I hope you have a very large cup of coffee Norfolk..because we have not seen any updated photos of the Varyag in some time. I think the photos posted that claim to be new are just re-hashed pictures. Nothing more.

When I see something from the PLAN about the actual start of construction of a PLAN CV/LPH/LHA/CVH etc...etc.. I will then beleive it. Until then..I'm going to Starbucks..:coffee:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).

Click to expand...

I hope you have a very large cup of coffee Norfolk..because we have not seen any updated photos of the Varyag in some time. I think the photos posted that claim to be new are just re-hashed pictures. Nothing more.

When I see something from the PLAN about the actual start of construction of a PLAN CV/LPH/LHA/CVH etc...etc.. I will then beleive it. Until then..I'm going to Starbucks..:coffee: