PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

sumdud said:

Hey, Planeman. You said your landing strip is also a STOBAR take off right?
I think that might be a problem. Having it would help slow an aircraft down on a successful landing, but what if the plane flies too fast or is descending too slowly? It would have to power up and repeat.
My concern is, I can't imagine having to power up in that short space and avoid the new obstacle!

Click to expand...

Right, something I havn't seen before. If for whatever reason the pilot has to "wave it off", it could become difficult. He cannot countinue in his path, since he will then crash into the skyjump. That means he has to fly a turn to avoid it. Now if he's already close to the carrier, that turn could become relatively steep. But that's something you don't want as well, because when rolling into a turn, your loosing lift. At the slow landing-speed and that close to the see not all that good. To maintain altitude in the turn, you must increase your AOA, but since that is already rahter high, you're close to a stall.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

sumdud said:

Hey, Planeman. You said your landing strip is also a STOBAR take off right?
I think that might be a problem. Having it would help slow an aircraft down on a successful landing, but what if the plane flies too fast or is descending too slowly? It would have to power up and repeat.
My concern is, I can't imagine having to power up in that short space and avoid the new obstacle!

Click to expand...

Right, something I havn't seen before. If for whatever reason the pilot has to "wave it off", it could become difficult. He cannot countinue in his path, since he will then crash into the skyjump. That means he has to fly a turn to avoid it. Now if he's already close to the carrier, that turn could become relatively steep. But that's something you don't want as well, because when rolling into a turn, your loosing lift. At the slow landing-speed and that close to the see not all that good. To maintain altitude in the turn, you must increase your AOA, but since that is already rahter high, you're close to a stall.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

sumdud said:

Hey, Planeman. You said your landing strip is also a STOBAR take off right?
I think that might be a problem. Having it would help slow an aircraft down on a successful landing, but what if the plane flies too fast or is descending too slowly? It would have to power up and repeat.
My concern is, I can't imagine having to power up in that short space and avoid the new obstacle!

Click to expand...

Right, something I havn't seen before. If for whatever reason the pilot has to "wave it off", it could become difficult. He cannot countinue in his path, since he will then crash into the skyjump. That means he has to fly a turn to avoid it. Now if he's already close to the carrier, that turn could become relatively steep. But that's something you don't want as well, because when rolling into a turn, your loosing lift. At the slow landing-speed and that close to the see not all that good. To maintain altitude in the turn, you must increase your AOA, but since that is already rahter high, you're close to a stall.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Obi, those are gorgous pics. My hat's off to you. Always very good posts and very well stated and professionally done.

You inspired me to make a better representation of my X-Deck design for the PLAN as described in my novel series.

So, here is the new pic...the 50-60,000 ton x-deck (conventional carrier takeoff and landing) design from my book, with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls.

A 50-60,000 ton design with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls. (Just click on the thumbnail for a larger image)

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Click to expand...

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Obi, those are gorgous pics. My hat's off to you. Always very good posts and very well stated and professionally done.

You inspired me to make a better representation of my X-Deck design for the PLAN as described in my novel series.

So, here is the new pic...the 50-60,000 ton x-deck (conventional carrier takeoff and landing) design from my book, with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls.

A 50-60,000 ton design with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls. (Just click on the thumbnail for a larger image)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Obi, those are gorgous pics. My hat's off to you. Always very good posts and very well stated and professionally done.

You inspired me to make a better representation of my X-Deck design for the PLAN as described in my novel series.

So, here is the new pic...the 50-60,000 ton x-deck (conventional carrier takeoff and landing) design from my book, with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls.

A 50-60,000 ton design with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls. (Just click on the thumbnail for a larger image)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Obi Wan Russell said:

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Click to expand...

In the book, that type of production process is discussed and the PLAN utilizes such methodologies to put them into full, rapid production. Also much discussed are the tell-tale signs the west begins to notice of the covert conversions and how they ultimately determine what is up...but only on the eve of the actual conflict and too late to do anything about it.

With a modular construction methodology, minimizing drastic hull changes, with all of the logistics in place, and utilizing three seperate facilites, the PLAN is able (in the tale) to pump out a new carrier every 10-12 weeks from each facility. Almost liberty ship style production...and they have a telling effect.

The PLAN makes good use of the Varyag as its initial carrier before the conflict in training crews to man the rapid production vessels.

...and as you indicate, all of this is not just wild speculation. The ARAPAHO project existed and was studied. During World War II, the practise of converting commercial ships to light, "jeep" carriers for escort duty was put in place and many conversions were made, and a lot of good escort duty was accomplished. Many of them saw combat and several were lost...but they did their job well. Anyhow, from all of that I drew some of the details and reasoning for it in the Dragon;s Fury book.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Obi Wan Russell said:

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Click to expand...

In the book, that type of production process is discussed and the PLAN utilizes such methodologies to put them into full, rapid production. Also much discussed are the tell-tale signs the west begins to notice of the covert conversions and how they ultimately determine what is up...but only on the eve of the actual conflict and too late to do anything about it.

With a modular construction methodology, minimizing drastic hull changes, with all of the logistics in place, and utilizing three seperate facilites, the PLAN is able (in the tale) to pump out a new carrier every 10-12 weeks from each facility. Almost liberty ship style production...and they have a telling effect.

The PLAN makes good use of the Varyag as its initial carrier before the conflict in training crews to man the rapid production vessels.

...and as you indicate, all of this is not just wild speculation. The ARAPAHO project existed and was studied. During World War II, the practise of converting commercial ships to light, "jeep" carriers for escort duty was put in place and many conversions were made, and a lot of good escort duty was accomplished. Many of them saw combat and several were lost...but they did their job well. Anyhow, from all of that I drew some of the details and reasoning for it in the Dragon;s Fury book.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Obi Wan Russell said:

The possibilities of container ships and containerised modules is a subject close to my heart, as I have been working with containers in the road haulage sector for twelve years now. A container ship is almost an impressive a sight as a CV when alongside, and the imagination cannot help but wander at the possibilties...

A lot of specialist containers from the Arapaho project (an 80s update of the CVE idea) are stored at the MOD site at Bicester in Oxfordshire, ready to be sent to Portsmouth or any other yard if needed to refit a container ship at short notice,- a process which could be carried out in a matter of days, quite an achievement by any standard. Of course this would only produce a ship able to operate up to four ASW Helos, but this would suffice for convoy escort duties. The more complex design illustrated here would require a lot more preparation in peacetime, and indeed this should be done as a matter of urgency to prevent delays in time of war. A converted vessel (the prototype) could be held in reserve and extra modules could be held in store at any number of container storage depots, most of which would be anonymous and thus quite secure in civilian yards. Sufficient modules to convert two or three extra vessels would constitute a viable war reserve plus the protoype vessel available at short notice.:nono:

Click to expand...

In the book, that type of production process is discussed and the PLAN utilizes such methodologies to put them into full, rapid production. Also much discussed are the tell-tale signs the west begins to notice of the covert conversions and how they ultimately determine what is up...but only on the eve of the actual conflict and too late to do anything about it.

With a modular construction methodology, minimizing drastic hull changes, with all of the logistics in place, and utilizing three seperate facilites, the PLAN is able (in the tale) to pump out a new carrier every 10-12 weeks from each facility. Almost liberty ship style production...and they have a telling effect.

The PLAN makes good use of the Varyag as its initial carrier before the conflict in training crews to man the rapid production vessels.

...and as you indicate, all of this is not just wild speculation. The ARAPAHO project existed and was studied. During World War II, the practise of converting commercial ships to light, "jeep" carriers for escort duty was put in place and many conversions were made, and a lot of good escort duty was accomplished. Many of them saw combat and several were lost...but they did their job well. Anyhow, from all of that I drew some of the details and reasoning for it in the Dragon;s Fury book.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

.....

You inspired me to make a better representation of my X-Deck design for the PLAN as described in my novel series.

So, here is the new pic...the 50-60,000 ton x-deck (conventional carrier takeoff and landing) design from my book, with up to 48 aircraft, modularly constructed on the top of large, modern, container ship hulls.
.....

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

Jeff, didn't you see the possibility of collissions by the "crossing x-deck"?
To reduce the risk, you have to wait in landing operations that the aircraft before passed the "collision-point" and than the next plane could touch down, but so you win no more capacity compared to conventionell angled-deck designs;
in starting operations you have two decks - thats the same as conventionell angled-decks can make available;
so - excuse my stupid question - where is the big advantage of this creation?