PLAN Carrier Construction
- Thread starter escobar
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Engineer
Major
As you have said, the aircraft leaves the ski ramp at a lower speed. This is a great disadvantage, considering the goal is to actually get an aircraft to leave at the highest speed possible. Also, you pointed out that the aircraft needs to accelerate after leaving the ramp to attain horizontal flying speed. It means the take off run isn't shortened, just that part of the run is moved overboard. A catapult on the other hand truly shortens the take off run.
Even when we suppose your concept can reduce take off length, a catapult can always reduce that length more by having the power cranked up further. Essentially, your concept will always get beaten with a straight forward solution, rendering your concept infeasible.
Delft, I see your concept as sound, but overly complex, I have even transferred some of my great affection for you, to your EMALs Ramp, I believe what you mean to convey as advantages are thus, the aircraft may fly away at full gross weight, accelerate to "flying speed" on a much shorter ramp, after being accelerated up the Ramp by the EMALs Cat or Cats, and "fly away" at an optimum Angle of Attack, at a greater altitude, and therefore offer a safer departure than the cat launch off a deck parallel to the water. This concept would free the mid and afterdeck for parking, fueling, loading, and recovering aircraft. I am finally getting some of this into my Mark ONE noggin, and I do LOVE the concept, as a pilot, I like the idea of having greater obstacle clearance,,,,, but, I'm afraid the Eng is right, it is very complex, and that means expensive. Now your confidence in Sino Engineering is also catching, and their "clean slate" status at present would be good timing if their EMALs was at a pace to move ahead? a very big if??
We've had this discussion before..Just keep reading from Delft's post onward.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/nav...ns-news-videos-photos-38-5683.html#post159854
An USN C41 steam Catapult can launch this..an A6-E with twenty four 500(226kg) pound bombs and a full centerline tank... what more do you need?
An Nimitz class with 4 C41 catapults can launch, if need be , four fully laden aircraft every two to four minutes. I see no need for a cat with an ski ramp. EMAL or steam.
Just my opinion.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/nav...ns-news-videos-photos-38-5683.html#post159854
An USN C41 steam Catapult can launch this..an A6-E with twenty four 500(226kg) pound bombs and a full centerline tank... what more do you need?
An Nimitz class with 4 C41 catapults can launch, if need be , four fully laden aircraft every two to four minutes. I see no need for a cat with an ski ramp. EMAL or steam.
Just my opinion.
Add to this that a ski ramp takes up valuable deck space for spotting...and a lot of it.
If you can build and effectively operate cats, you will definitely eliminate the ski jump so you can launch those heavy birds, and gain all of that deck space.
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Liaoning's Provincial Party Committee Secretary has just said publicly that "after the commissioning of the Liaoning, China's second home-constructed aircraft carrier will start construction at Dalian, with an estimated construction cycle of 6 years, together with 2 other 052D guided-missile destroyers. "
First, this MAY or MAY NOT be reliable. But I believe it should be as it corresponds to what we have known so far (North and South each will build a carrier, with the North start the construction of 052Ds). Although the number of 052Ds does differ from what we have known (2 vs 4).
Second, in the original report what he said was "国产" which literally translates into "country-made" or "country-produced" or "country-manufactured". So, by "second" he could mean that Liaoning is the first OR he could mean that the carrier at Shanghai has already started construction (which may be those structures we have seen in photos).
These are just some of the possible interpretations of his words and some of my own speculations. Do take it with a grain of salt.
For those who are not familiar with Chinese system, a provincial party committee secretary (also known as "party-chief") is the highest level party official in a province. Although the provincial governor is the head of government, the "party-chief" has actually higher rank and higher power than the governor. Also, many provincial level or municipal cities' party chiefs, especially young and capable ones from important places such as Shanghai, will eventually rise to the most powerful elite Politburo Standing Committee, or even become premier or Party General Secretary, who's also the President, and Chairman of the Central Military Committee.
News link:
First, this MAY or MAY NOT be reliable. But I believe it should be as it corresponds to what we have known so far (North and South each will build a carrier, with the North start the construction of 052Ds). Although the number of 052Ds does differ from what we have known (2 vs 4).
Second, in the original report what he said was "国产" which literally translates into "country-made" or "country-produced" or "country-manufactured". So, by "second" he could mean that Liaoning is the first OR he could mean that the carrier at Shanghai has already started construction (which may be those structures we have seen in photos).
These are just some of the possible interpretations of his words and some of my own speculations. Do take it with a grain of salt.
For those who are not familiar with Chinese system, a provincial party committee secretary (also known as "party-chief") is the highest level party official in a province. Although the provincial governor is the head of government, the "party-chief" has actually higher rank and higher power than the governor. Also, many provincial level or municipal cities' party chiefs, especially young and capable ones from important places such as Shanghai, will eventually rise to the most powerful elite Politburo Standing Committee, or even become premier or Party General Secretary, who's also the President, and Chairman of the Central Military Committee.
News link:
If the source is right, it all sounds legit. That being said, the construction cycle of 6 years, compared with cycles of other carriers around the world, either doesnt include pre-keel laying subcomponents construction or doesnt include post launch fitting out and testing. Assuming its the latter, and keel laying happens within, say, six months, the handing over to the navy probably wont happen before mid 2019. true entry into service, witch active air wing, then probably wouldnt happenbefore end of 2020.
More likely it would be the former, methinks, given most people qualify shipbuilding start as keel laying and subcomponents are usually created outside of "awareness" whereas fitting out is generally included in the "construction time".
But this entire thing is still as suspect as any other carrier construction rumour.
But this entire thing is still as suspect as any other carrier construction rumour.
We could square the count for Type 052Ds by interpreting that the statement only refers to ones built in Dalian, with the other two being built in Jiangnan. Nice catch on the guy using the term 国产.
I agree about the reliability of this statement. Provincial Party Chiefs are generally very reliable sources, since they're the guys who make sure important projects in their purview are going smoothly and getting the right resources and attention.
I think it's less suspect because of the position of the person. It also aligns very well with the recent noise we've been getting on new carrier construction.
my, i did write "latter" didn't i? in fact, i wanted to write "former". I also think the likelier meaning is that construction here does not include pre keel laying work. but six years after that is still really required to put the thing together, float it out, fit it out, do shipyard test. by the time all that's done, we're really looking at 2019, at a minimum.
Unrelated to that piece of new/rumor, i have recently started to consider that this first domestic carrier may in fact be heavily based on ulyanovsk, as some rumors about blueprints said. it sort of makes sense, even with the two modules seen at dalian and shanghai. they could both be related to a ship of same design - ulyanovsk like carrier with both a ski ramp and waist catapult.
another possibility is that there may in fact be two carriers built nearly simultaneously, but of different designs. another one of chinese "high risk" and "low risk" double project endavours. so maybe dalian will build a stobar carrier much like liaoning, considered a low risk solution, while shangai will build a high risk catobar design. which would probably take longer to complete and test.
then, if the shanghai one doesn't perform as wanted, another stobar might be in order before a modified construction process of the high risk design happens.
yes, all of this is just guessing.