PLAAF Munitions

planeman

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

Re the non-finned AAM like pods on the wing stations - could be practice PL-8s or AA-11s but my betting is on camera/instrumentation pods using AAM fuselage tubes - when you conduct test bomb releases you generally want to film it in high resolution from several angles as part of the testing. Just my guess though.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

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first picture of KD-88 electro optical air to surface missile. I alway assume that PLAAF EO guide missile may be liscense copy of russia AS-14 "kedge" ,but the picture show it was not copy at all, actuator for As-14 is in the front,while KD-88 is located in the tail.
semi active laser homing head developed by Loyang may also exist.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

For general reference, this is global-security's data on the status of American Smart Weapons
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this is an article on the PGMs shown in Zhuhai airshow
I will try to translate it later
it's an interview with a PGM expert from Luoyang. Luoyang produces LS-6 and LT-2
zhuhaipgmarticle01ru1.jpg

basically saying LT-2 and LS-6 were shown in Zhuhai 2006. This is the first time China has shown its indigenous PGMs to the world. So, the interview.
Q: LS-6 and LT-2 grabbed a lot of attention, but what's the point of Luoyang developing these weapons?
A: PGMs are the most important weapon in ground attack these days, precision striking power is shown in battle, using PGM could be an evolution in warfare. PLAAF needs it for its operations, so we developed these 2 types.
zhuhaipgmarticle02cd2.jpg

Q: can you explain LS-6 glide bomb?
A: LS-6 glide bomb is a weapon that can used outside of the effective air defense area of the enemy and can do precision attack on ground targets
Q: You talk about LS-6 as a standoff weapon, what is its range?
A: launched from 8000 m, it's 48 km. Launched from 11000 m, it's 60 km.
Q: What is the range of LT-2?
A: Can't comment on it.
Q: LT-2 and LS-6's appearance definitely filled a blank for our country, but America is definitely the leader in PGM, can you compare LS-6 to the weapons in service in America?
A: There are two types: One are the JSSAM, these are the ones with motor. And then there are JDAM, these just have the bomb. LS-6 should be compared to JDAM, because both are just bombs. Early JDAM are not standoff, since they only have about a 20 km range, but recently improved JDAM raised the range to 70 km. So as you can see, we started later, but set our bar higher, so LS-6 is basically like a improved JDAM.
Q: I heard America worked with developers of (a European munition company) to improve the range of JDAM. LS-6 looks kind of like their munition, any relations?
A: LS-6 is developed solely by Luoyang, we did this in 3 years.
Q: The most important part is the accuracy, what is it?
A: It's only 15 m CEP for LS-6.
Q: Is this the spec or tested value?
A: It's the tested result.
Q: What about LT-2? What is it's CEP?
A: This I can reveal (note: sinodefense suspect it's 6.5 m)
According to huitong, domestic version is LS-500J and the CEP is less than 6.5 m.
zhuhaipgmarticle03rz2.jpg

Q: JDAM's original spec was 13 m CEP, but it actually achieved 10 m. So, there is still a gap.
A: Yes, but the gap is small and we are consistently trying to improve on it.
Q: What is the guidanced used for LS-6?
A: It uses GPS + INS. It has terminal correction. This guarantees the accuracy of LS-6, it's an all weather, all condition munition.
Q: What if Americans don't allow us to use GPS?
A: It can use GLONASS or Beidou. This is up to the customer.
Q: What is the guidance of LT-2?
A:It uses semi-active laser guidance, needs laser designator to illuminate the target.
Q: Is there weather restrictions?
A: Yes, rain and mist would affect the performance of LT-2.
Q: What is the warhead of LS-6?
A: It uses a regular 500 kg bomb, just put wing on top of it and add guidance system.
Q: So, this is modular?
A: yes, that's part of the design.
Q: What about LT-2?
A: LT-2 is basically changing existing bomb, it uses a 500 kg bomb.
Q: Is there any other uses for the wings of LS-6?
A: yes, gives it more even flight performance.
Q: So you are saying the wing can change flight performance?
A: yes and with some explanation here.
Q: can't translate this, need better Chinese
A: see above
Q: is there any restriction toward the flight speed and stability of aircraft?
A: Can't comment
zhuhaipgmarticle04xq7.jpg

Q: Does LT-2 and LS-6 have the ability to penetrate bunkers?
A: No, they are just using regular bombs so far
Q: Is there such modification planned?
A: yes, there will be according to future requirements
Q: whether it's JSSAM or JDAM, they are already have series of this. There are different weight classes. Are there such plans for LS?
A: Of course, the air force has different bomb classes. In future LS can develop into a family.
Q: What's the progress of LS-6 and LT-2?
A: LT-2 is already equipped the air force and LS-6 is certified, just needs a little more testing.
Q: Is there any requirements to launching platform?
A: Not really.
Q: I saw a picture of J-8IIM with LS-6. Is J-8IIM the main launch platform?
A: This, I'm not too sure about.
Q: So, are you trying to equip plaaf first?
A: yes, our air force gave us this requirement, so it's our responsibility to do this.
Q: just some thanks
A: appreciate it

Now, regarding FT series.
Q: What does FT stand for?
A: explains in Chinese.
Q: we saw FT-1 and FT-3, where is FT-2?
A: FT-1 is certified, FT-3 hasn't been certified, FT-2 has this project, it's a future development.
Q: What's the performance of FT-1?
A: range of 18 km and CEP of 30 m.
Q: why is it so much inferior to the accuracy of LS-6?
A: I'm not part of their company. They are probably just been more conservative and in test, the accuracy is probably higher.
Q: So there is competition between you guys?
A: yes, but this is good competition, our advantage is that our cost is low and performance/cost ratio is high
Q: FT-1's appearance is extremely similar to JDAM, did they use JDAM for reference?
A: FT series is also developed indigenously, exterior is similar, but nothing too surprising.
Q: The aerodynamic appearance of FT-1 and FT-3 is extremely different. FT-3 looks like something that can have a motor in the future.
A: yes, as I said, FT-3 is still not certified, it's external appearance may be changed. You can always add motor and get longer range, but the more complex a bomb, the cost will obviously go up.
Q: Is there any plan to equip plaaf or export for FT-1?
A: has plans for export, hasn't entered service yet.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

a picture of LS-500J (aka LT-2) with JH-7A
jh7als500jyi4.jpg
 

Totoro

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

I must say that is one of best pieces of news i've read here in a while.
Having said that, I shall comment about content.

I wish there was a question "Under which conditions have those CEPs been achieved?" and then answer something like "we used xy network for both launch plane and the munition, we did xx number of test firings from yy km away"

Could they have even tested the weapons under military glonass signal? If they paid the russians, yes. I'm still inclined to think they tested it on beidou and civilian signals of other navigation networks.

Then why the big difference betwen ls-6 and ft-1? Sure, dude in the article sort of explained it but It feels to me ft-1 results are more consistent whereas for ls-6 they took just the best range of results and are advertising them as standart now. This is all assuming testing was done on beidou network. And truth to be told, even 30 cep sounds as very high precision for what has been said about current beidou. That is beidou + ground signals for assistance, as just pure beidou has been said to go over 100 m of possible errors.

Anyhow, it was nice to know that some are already certified if not in use. I must say before this i suspected most are still under development. At this pace, in 5 years time precision weapons should be widespread in plaaf.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

I must say that is one of best pieces of news i've read here in a while.
Having said that, I shall comment about content.

I wish there was a question "Under which conditions have those CEPs been achieved?" and then answer something like "we used xy network for both launch plane and the munition, we did xx number of test firings from yy km away"

Could they have even tested the weapons under military glonass signal? If they paid the russians, yes. I'm still inclined to think they tested it on beidou and civilian signals of other navigation networks.

Then why the big difference betwen ls-6 and ft-1? Sure, dude in the article sort of explained it but It feels to me ft-1 results are more consistent whereas for ls-6 they took just the best range of results and are advertising them as standart now. This is all assuming testing was done on beidou network. And truth to be told, even 30 cep sounds as very high precision for what has been said about current beidou. That is beidou + ground signals for assistance, as just pure beidou has been said to go over 100 m of possible errors.

Anyhow, it was nice to know that some are already certified if not in use. I must say before this i suspected most are still under development. At this pace, in 5 years time precision weapons should be widespread in plaaf.
Well, in 5 years, Beidou should be a more comprehensive system, so the accuracy will probably go up.

it could be the FT-1's results are from using Beidou and LS-6's results are from using GPS guidance. I wish they had specified the INS only CEP.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

2 years ago, there's article in the website about new gen. of air to ground guide weapon being developed in china,it mention about JDAM type weapon, new EO guide missile,and copy of KAB-500L.
but the article also included airbrone dispenser similioar to Thales Apache airborne dispenser and new IIR guide JDAM,FT-1 satelite guide bomb fitted with small IIR camera to enchant her accuracy.
 

adeptitus

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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

I wish there was a question "Under which conditions have those CEPs been achieved?" and then answer something like "we used xy network for both launch plane and the munition, we did xx number of test firings from yy km away"

When the manufacturer publish a claim on the weapon's specs, it's usually "under ideal conditions". For example AAM's are often cited with their maximum range under ideal conditions (head on interception).

Pilots in African AF are known to launch munitions at maximum range with very poor results.
 

Totoro

Major
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Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

When the manufacturer publish a claim on the weapon's specs, it's usually "under ideal conditions". For example AAM's are often cited with their maximum range under ideal conditions (head on interception).

Exactly what i have said, too. Which is why I doubt the mentioned 15 m CEP are are more inclined to buy into also mentioned 30 m CEP.

Incidently, 30 m is often cited as CEP of INS guidance only for US made JDAM from max range. Which seems a bit less precise than usual INS is, for example in ballistic missiles, where general rule of thumb is 1 m added for every 1 km travelled though that can be explained with smaller and less precise INS unit in cramped space of a JDAM guidance kit.
 

Kongo

Junior Member
Re: PLAAF precision guided munitions

What would be interesting would be the preciseness at which the PLAAF can locate the target, aka Target Location Error, or TLE. For example, there is no point having a 1m CEP if you have a TLE of 100m. The USAF has already come up against this problem - the JDAMs have a CEP value below the often achieved TLE value.
 
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