PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

lzmfVw

New Member
Registered Member
NATO minus the American forces have negligible amount of forces in West Pac. There is no reason to provoke more countries than absolutely necessary.
NATO doesn't need to be in the Pacific to play a non-trivial role in the conflict. Even if we laugh at attempts like this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In a wider conflagration, NATO stopping China's trade with Africa and Middles East is something that China doesn't have an answer to at the moment.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
NATO doesn't need to be in the Pacific to play a non-trivial role in the conflict. Even if we laugh at attempts like this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In a wider conflagration, NATO stopping China's trade with Africa and Middles East is something that China doesn't have an answer to at the moment.
You are suggesting China to do what against NATO minus the US forces? Where?
 

lzmfVw

New Member
Registered Member
You are suggesting China to do what against NATO minus the US forces? Where?
This is kinda the point. What can the PLA do in 2022 against NATO, even without the U.S., if NATO decides to cut off China's trade with Africa and energy supplies from the Middle East? Does PLAN have the expeditionary capability against even notional NATO forces that far abroad?

If someone were to say to me that the PLA would first defeat the USN in detail in the Pacific, then send 3 SAG to the Arabian Sea, close the Strait of Hormuz and deny energy supplies to Europe, and smack whatever NATO assets chose to linger in the area around for a bit and force the West to come to a negotiated settlement, then that is a plan! But that sounds like something only possible starting in 2035. What happens if a conflict erupts before then? What about 2022? The lack of answer to that last question is why ignoring NATO involvement is not prudent planning.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not necessarily declare war, but US+JP forces at a minimum are absolutely considered H+0 targets in the event of a conflict. Giving us time to reposition, withdraw and disperse assets, and time to elevate our readiness is a huge disadvantage in the event that we do intervene (Even in the course of a single day, our forces can drastically complicate PLA ISTAR and weaponeering). If the PLA is committed to reunification, we currently do not assess that they would afford us the advantage of free time. The best time to kill something is when it's unprepared. Allowing us any time at all would be a significant blunder in the event we do opt to intervene - which I can confidently say is extremely likely in our current geostrategic environment.
But this assumes that any of this is prepared. When the fight starts really depends on Taiwan. A declaration of independence is the obvious trigger but a stupid kinetic response to a symbolic show of force is all it takes.

The intensity depends on the US - whether it is WW3 or just some minor regional conflict. But not when it starts. China is the one reacting to events and may not have conventional PLAN and PLARF assets at high readiness. So it is quite possible that neither China nor US are ready at hour 0 though China might be at a slightly higher readiness. And in that scenario the US is likely to sit out and assess the situation first.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Not necessarily declare war, but US+JP forces at a minimum are absolutely considered H+0 targets in the event of a conflict. Giving us time to reposition, withdraw and disperse assets, and time to elevate our readiness is a huge disadvantage in the event that we do intervene (Even in the course of a single day, our forces can drastically complicate PLA ISTAR and weaponeering). If the PLA is committed to reunification, we currently do not assess that they would afford us the advantage of free time. The best time to kill something is when it's unprepared. Allowing us any time at all would be a significant blunder in the event we do opt to intervene - which I can confidently say is extremely likely in our current geostrategic environment.
That's the current time when they probably do need a surprise attack against US/JP forces to create enough advantage.

Let's forward 8 years to 2030. I'm not saying this is going to happen, but let's just play this out hypothetically. China has 4 carriers in service, 20 H-20s, 6 to 8 095s, 20 055s, 6 075/076s, 150 Y-20s, 50 Y-20Us, full arsenal of hypersonic/subsonic anti-ship/land attack missile + 600 J-20s and 50 J-35s. At the same time, US military has a very small number hypersonic missiles, minimal B-21 in service, no NGAD, 10 more block V Virginia class, very few block 4 F-35s. So, PLA in this case has huge improvement vs now and US military just proceed as it has been in the past 8 years. And let's say PLA has this unmanned stuff figured out better than US military.

All of this is quite likely imo, I don't know how you would judge this. But let's say this happens, wouldn't the foreign policy people even hesistate against this type of odds and be cautious in entering any conflict? Seems like the smaller the gap is between the 2 militaries, the more beneficial it is for PLAAF to not do pre-emptive strike.

NATO doesn't need to be in the Pacific to play a non-trivial role in the conflict. Even if we laugh at attempts like this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In a wider conflagration, NATO stopping China's trade with Africa and Middles East is something that China doesn't have an answer to at the moment.
Are you just think about natural resources? In a couple of years, there will be so many EVs and renewable energy in China + with supplies of oil/gas from Russia that getting cut off from Africa/middle East is going to do very little in stopping China's industrial power. Japan/SK and all of ASEAN countries would actually get destroyed by that though.

If Europe does that, China can always send bombers in to destroy refineries/LNG production in middle east. Then, Europe would be really in trouble. Without Chinese supply chain and fossil fuel, the European economy is going to collapse.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
That's the current time when they probably do need a surprise attack against US/JP forces to create enough advantage.

Let's forward 8 years to 2030. I'm not saying this is going to happen, but let's just play this out hypothetically. China has 4 carriers in service, 20 H-20s, 6 to 8 095s, 20 055s, 6 075/076s, 150 Y-20s, 50 Y-20Us, full arsenal of hypersonic/subsonic anti-ship/land attack missile + 600 J-20s and 50 J-35s. At the same time, US military has a very small number hypersonic missiles, minimal B-21 in service, no NGAD, 10 more block V Virginia class, very few block 4 F-35s. So, PLA in this case has huge improvement vs now and US military just proceed as it has been in the past 8 years. And let's say PLA has this unmanned stuff figured out better than US military.

I feel like some of this assumptions are giving the PLA a bit more credit and the US a bit less credit than is safe.

By 2030 I would be surprised if the PLA had more H-20s in service than the US did B-21s.
Given the PLA currently has some 30-40 Y-20 airframes in service, building 160-170 airframes total between now and 2030 also seems a bit optimistic.

I expect the US to have more than only very few Block 4 F-35s by 2030, and I think it is reasonable to expect even some elements/form of NGAD in service.

But sure, add some capabilities to both sides...
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Any conflict will necessarily be prepared. Even if Taiwan were to do a "pro gamer move" as the youth call it, and declared independence right now - it would never be with US support, nor would it mean hostilities have to start immediately. The PRC absolutely and completely possesses the initiative in any US-CN conflict.
So then we're not talking peacetime posture. If Taiwan goes and declares independence or shoots at a PLAAF flyby, then both China and US are going to be moving towards wartime posture, escalating tensions, etc. I don't see a readiness advantage for China in that case.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
NATO stopping China's trade with Africa and Middles East
Trade between China and Africa/ME go in both directions. China can survive without the raw materials from Africa and ME for a few years. But how long can Africa and ME go without the goods from China? How long will it take NATO to find another source to resupply Africa and ME, and at what price?

I doubt that Africans and Arabs will be keen on shouldering such price for NATO.

Perhaps China will not even need to cross NATO's blockade in Indian Ocean. Africans and Arabs will come to China with iron ores and crude and carry home the Made-in-China goods. What is NATO going to do then?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I've heard these "Block 4"s mentioned often recently. What's so magical about them?

Basically, it is a much more advanced block of F-35 primarily in terms of software/computing, EW, ability to be more easily upgraded, and field much more capable strike weapons than the current F-35s do (including standoff strike and maritime strike, with the requisite sensor and computing mods to enable those roles more effectively), as well as integrating weapons developed by international customers.

This is a decent summary from 2019, though a few things have changed since then

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Top