PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Im done here
You sure are. Go ask your professors and come back for more.
, you won’t listen to anyone that doesn’t agree with you
You mean that for yourself, right? Because like everyone agrees with me and no one agrees with you and that includes the US president and Defense secretary, and you won't listen to anyone else.
and you always resort to insults like you have in every conversation with me,
You're the one who decided you couldn't keep up with the point-to-point and just call it all BS, right? You wanted to flip the chess board and now you're all sad you were hit in the face with flying pieces.
you are an grown adult for crying out loud, insults don’t make you look cool,
Then how come my rating is so high? LOL And on the contrary, repeating defeated points in horrible English doesn't make you look cool, does it?
I said my points what btw you didn’t rebute other than saying but missiles,
Because supersonic and hypersonic missiles rebut both carriers and bases, which is all you've got.
the US has thousands of missiles btw
Mostly subsonic, and mostly out of range because they don't have bases to fire from so they need to rely on single aerially refueled assets.
and missiles can damage Chinese bases too
If they can reach them, which they are provided with very scarce oppertunity to do, and even then, they have to worry about Chinese interceptors.
but you don’t want to hear that,
I heard and rebutted it but you failed to internalize it.
and btw I’m not contuining because it’s a waste of my time
It is because all you can do is pretend that China doesn't have a massively decisive missile advantage
not because I can’t continue,
We all know how you would continue. I can continue for you; here, watch:

You: The US has XX bases and XX carriers, they'll be super effective.
Me: No, because they'll all be getting pounded by Chinese missiles.
You: OK but you're forgetting about the US carriers and bases.
Me: The ones on fire?
You: But you're saying they're not useful? Why wouldn't they be useful?
Me: Because they're on fire.
You: OK but I gave you my reason; US bases and Japan and Philippines are gonna be a big factor.
Me: And I rebutted with no they won't because they're on fire.
You: You just don't like my reason and can't listen to other opinions.
and one more thing just because people agree with you doesn’t make me wrong or you right.
It actually does, most of the time in real life. Not every time, but when you're in a room and everyone is telling you that you are wrong, you're most likely wrong. It's certainly not an indicator of being right, as you wish to imagine.
Im done here it’s a waste of my time,
Right, because you don't comprehend or rebut but only repeat. Perhaps after you graduate, you can try again to learn here.
I hope you have a good day
As always
and along with everyone else and for those who didn’t resort to insults, i appreciate it.
They have the patience of monks, don't they? Amazing
We can agree to disagree on stuff and that’s ok. I have my opinion on this matter and so do you guys
That line again. Every one of your points is crushed, you asked for what Trump and Hegseth said and they both said it's a no-go but hey, agree to disagree. You're not wrong just because everyone from online forum-goers all to the way to the US President and defense chief all say you're wrong. The earth is flat; if you say it's round, then agree to disagree LOL How can anyone lose an argument with that line, eh? Your debate professor teach it to you for escape?
 
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wangcard

New Member
Registered Member
Im done here, you won’t listen to anyone that doesn’t agree with you and you always resort to insults like you have in every conversation with me, you are an grown adult for crying out loud, insults don’t make you look cool, I said my points what btw you didn’t rebute other than saying but missiles, the US has thousands of missiles btw and missiles can damage Chinese bases too but you don’t want to hear that, and btw I’m not contuining because it’s a waste of my time not because I can’t continue, and one more thing just because people agree with you doesn’t make me wrong or you right.

Im done here it’s a waste of my time, I hope you have a good day and along with everyone else and for those who didn’t resort to insults, i appreciate it. We can agree to disagree on stuff and that’s ok. I have my opinion on this matter and so do you guys
What you said is very imprecise. The United States does not have thousands of missiles, but only has thousands of missiles in stock. Judging from the US military procurement in the past three years, the United States has no ability to continue to produce thousands of missiles in a short period of time. The number of missiles you mentioned can only support the first week of the war at most.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's likely easier to convince him to stay out of a Taiwan scenario and recognize China's rule over Taiwan after AR in exchange for TSMC moving all currently banned SME to the US.

A grand bargain is appealing in theory, but hard to reach in practice, and even harder to consummate in reality.

If such an agreement between 中南海 and the Trump administration is achieved on paper, there's little to no guarantee the current administration will have the political capital for implementation in totality, especially once they start running into inevitable pushback from Congress, the MIC and elsewhere.

Even if a reasonable effort is made, there's no certainty of continuity once Trump leaves office in <3.5 years.




If it becomes US policy for Taiwan to acquire nuclear weapons, then I think a war of some sort is inevitable.

That's very much what's troubling.

If the Americans are actually to "let Taipei nuclearize" and that's a not totally insignificant if — at this point in the absence of many, if any options for preserving Pax Americana that are both viable and visible — Washington will almost certainly be discreet about its role, at least initially, to limit what options Beijing will be able to pursue in response.

Depending on your perspective, nuclearizing Taipei is either an impactful, if not the sole meaningful mechanism for deterring war across the Taiwan Strait, or an immediate and guaranteed casus belli.


In such a scenario, China might as well enforce a trade and technology embargo on the US, which would be far worse than what we just saw with the rare earth restrictions.

We were pretty close to that a few months ago in de facto terms, and it didn't even take much, if really any initiative on the part of China.

Taiwan can't preoccupy and weaken China, because Taiwan can be blockaded and cut off.
If there is a China-Taiwan war, and the US stays out, Taiwan will lose and will be absorbed relatively easily.

Even if we're to overlook uncertainties on the kinetic side of things for the sake of discourse, significant risks remain in terms of potential sanctions and broader economic consequences.

We've just been talking about a scenario where the US uses Taiwan as cannon fodder and deliberately tries to engineer a China-Taiwan war to weaken China. With the US staying out of the war, and Taiwanese inevitably losing.


In such a scenario, will Seoul, Tokyo or Manila really trust the US? Or will they seek better relations with China

You're operating under the assumption that those countries will be in a position to make informed, independent and rational decisions (from the get go), on where they stand vis-a-vis Washington and Beijing, should things get kinetic across the Taiwan Strait.

I encourage you to consider where Berlin has stood with regard to the Russo-Ukrainian War, since 2022, especially within the context of who was in fact responsible for the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, and how effectively losing access to affordable Russian natural gas has impacted the German economy.


Pax Americana needs to accept that we live in a multipolar world first, which is feasible, given time.

Virtually no one currently serving within the US government or military, at any reasonable level of seniority or influence, thinks or believes multipolarity to be inevitable, never mind something to accept or embrace. Even those who recognize such an outcome to be more plausible than not won't dare say so candidly in public, for fairly obvious reasons (at least from an American standpoint).

Granted, people like television personality turned SecDef Pete Hegseth do on occasion acknowledge or even arguably exaggerate China's A2/AD capabilities, in particular against USN CVNs:


Nevertheless, the good SecDef and his cohorts have and will continue to do what they can to preserve Pax Americana:

All this might sound strange to you, but Americans tend to be unusually optimistic people, and it's a double edged sword. While unwarranted optimism has been essential to many American triumphs and success stories in politics, technology, culture and industry, there's no denying that present American elites tend to be out of touch with the reach and limits of both our hard power and soft power.

Regardless, these efforts will continue so long as the likes of SecDef Hegseth retain their almost uniquely American optimism, and keep on telling both others and themselves that preserving the geopolitical status quo in Taiwan, as well as the broader, but diminishing "rules based order" led solely by Washington is achievable:

TBH, to the American political class, in particular members of Congress, multipolarity is basically an euphemism for slavery. The impositions of military and industrial realities be damned.

You should ask that Patchwork Chimera character what happens when an IC SME says too many (seemingly) "nice things" about China or its military, especially in a way that may be misinterpreted as "defeatism," or empathy for, never mind alignment with "the enemy."


A Pax Sinica will take significantly longer to appear, given a peaceful transition. And there is hope that this might not happen.

Vladimir Lenin reportedly once stated:
There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.

Xi Jinping not only seems to agree with such sentiments, but may see an inflection point on the horizon:
 
You literally said all BS, you really overestimate China and underestimate the US, just because people agree with you doesn’t make you right and just because hegseth said we would lose all carriers in 20 minute and lost all simulated war games against China doesn’t mean what he said is true and just because you say something doesn’t make it not propaganda and why do you think US missiles are few or China can destroy US bases and air bases in minutes and saying Japan isn’t really a threat is a huge underestimate, and US has ballistic missiles and the PAC-3 can shoot down hypersonic and supersonic missiles why do you think it can only shoot down subsonic. You severely underestimate the US, I gave you my reasons you just don’t like them.
How to put this in a manner that you would comprehend: You are a noob, and he and the other others that agree with him are not lulz.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Depending on your perspective, nuclearizing Taipei is either an impactful, if not the sole meaningful mechanism for deterring war across the Taiwan Strait, or an immediate and guaranteed casus belli.

It will literally be impossible for Taiwan to conceal a nuclear weapons programme and also integrate this with a delivery vehicle, without China finding out before this is ready.

So there will be some time for Taiwan to shut down it down, before any war starts.


We were pretty close to that a few months ago in de facto terms, and it didn't even take much, if really any initiative on the part of China.

That was the US government imposing 100%+ import tariffs on goods from China. So US companies could still obtain critical inputs and products. And in many cases, it was still worth paying these tariffs.

In comparison, if it is the Chinese government imposing a trade embargo on the USA, that won't be an option.

---

And to expand on my comment of "a war of some sort", if Taiwan pursues nuclear weapons.

Also two can play the proxy game.

Suppose China was to supply weapons to the Middle East, to be used against the Israeli military, and with the objective of:

1. Ending the Gaza Genocide. Millions of Palestinians have already spent decades in that giant open-air prison controlled by the Israeli military
2. End Israel's decades long colonisation project to eliminate the Palestinians in the West Bank, take their land, and replace them with Jewish settler colonists

My view is that such an action would be very popular globally, with the sole exception of the USA.
You just have to look at the UN votes or opinion polls.
And militarily, Israel and the US would be "cooked"

But again, this is a last resort type of action, if China sees a war with the US as inevitable.
Hence my view is that the USA can successfully be deterred.

Even if we're to overlook uncertainties on the kinetic side of things for the sake of discourse, significant risks remain in terms of potential sanctions and broader economic consequences.



You're operating under the assumption that those countries will be in a position to make informed, independent and rational decisions (from the get go), on where they stand vis-a-vis Washington and Beijing, should things get kinetic across the Taiwan Strait.

I encourage you to consider where Berlin has stood with regard to the Russo-Ukrainian War, since 2022, especially within the context of who was in fact responsible for the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, and how effectively losing access to affordable Russian natural gas has impacted the German economy.

Berlin operated on the assumption that after Russia was subject to "the mother of all sanctions", that the Russian economy would collapse and the Russians would have to back down and come back begging for forgiveness. Then the gas would flow again.
We're talking about all the major political parties in Berlin (and the West more broadly) fantasising that this would happen.

Needless to say, this isn't what happened.

In comparison, there is widespread recognition that China is a different beast, especially after the US "lost" the recent trade war due to the Rare Earths embargo. Notable differences include:

1. China does have 10x the population and GDP of Russia
2. China's manufacturing sector is also larger than the combined West
3. China is the largest trading partner for most countries in the world


Virtually no one currently serving within the US government or military, at any reasonable level of seniority or influence, thinks or believes multipolarity to be inevitable, never mind something to accept or embrace. Even those who recognize such an outcome to be more plausible than not won't dare say so candidly in public, for fairly obvious reasons (at least from an American standpoint).

Granted, people like television personality turned SecDef Pete Hegseth do on occasion acknowledge or even arguably exaggerate China's A2/AD capabilities, in particular against USN CVNs:


Nevertheless, the good SecDef and his cohorts have and will continue to do what they can to preserve Pax Americana:

All this might sound strange to you, but Americans tend to be unusually optimistic people, and it's a double edged sword. While unwarranted optimism has been essential to many American triumphs and success stories in politics, technology, culture and industry, there's no denying that present American elites tend to be out of touch with the reach and limits of both our hard power and soft power.

Regardless, these efforts will continue so long as the likes of SecDef Hegseth retain their almost uniquely American optimism, and keep on telling both others and themselves that preserving the geopolitical status quo in Taiwan, as well as the broader, but diminishing "rules based order" led solely by Washington is achievable:

TBH, to the American political class, in particular members of Congress, multipolarity is basically an euphemism for slavery. The impositions of military and industrial realities be damned.

You should ask that Patchwork Chimera character what happens when an IC SME says too many (seemingly) "nice things" about China or its military, especially in a way that may be misinterpreted as "defeatism," or empathy for, never mind alignment with "the enemy."



Vladimir Lenin reportedly once stated:


Xi Jinping not only seems to agree with such sentiments, but may see an inflection point on the horizon:


As I said, it will take time for views in the US government to change.

Arguably, the US losing the current round of the trade war to China, has shocked many members of the US government into reality.
 

GZDRefugee

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can anybody quantify the mission scope of both sides and probability of success at achieving their goals? In my field we generally don't make conclusions unless we have both an estimator p̂ and a confidence interval.
 

supersnoop

Colonel
Registered Member
Can anybody quantify the mission scope of both sides and probability of success at achieving their goals? In my field we generally don't make conclusions unless we have both an estimator p̂ and a confidence interval.
Taiwanese Independence victory
It was statistically proven by Taiwan media and Ian Easton, Chinese missiles will be totally neutralized
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(25% of missiles intercepted by SAMs, 25% interfered by EW, 20% hit decoys, 20% "can be counterattacked" whatever that means, 10% might hit)
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(210% Interception rate for Taiwan AD)
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
Taiwanese Independence victory
It was statistically proven by Taiwan media and Ian Easton, Chinese missiles will be totally neutralized
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(25% of missiles intercepted by SAMs, 25% interfered by EW, 20% hit decoys, 20% "can be counterattacked" whatever that means, 10% might hit)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(210% Interception rate for Taiwan AD)
I think this is off by an order of magnitude. If the recent Middle East conflict this year has taught us anything, it's that Western systems have an aggregate 2,100% interception rate. For every 1 interceptor launched, 21 incoming hypersonic missiles are destroyed. This reality informs the logic underpinning Golden Dome. Since hypersonic missiles are so easy to intercept, the era of nuclear MAD is over.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Repost here for reference:
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readiness, as measured by aircraft availability rates, is now 54 percent on average for all Air Force aircraft, meaning just over five out of every 10 aircraft are ready to fly on a given day because of funding and parts shortfalls. If called to fight tonight, the Air Force could generate just 56 combat-coded F-22s for air superiority and 354 combat-coded F-15Es, F-16s, and F-35s for strike and interdiction.

Factoring in readiness, the Total Force could deploy only 523 fighters and 51 bombers into the Indo-Pacific today if war broke out, and just 308 of those fighters and 27 of the bombers would be mission ready upon landing in theater.

For more than 12 years, the Air Force has not funded the flying hours or sortie rates, nor the spare parts required to sustain all mission ready aircrew training requirements. Over the past seven years, fighter pilots have averaged two or fewer sorties a week—below the minimum sortie requirement for any pilot or squadron to be considered combat mission ready. Pilots are flying at basic mission capable rates, which is below what is needed to form the habit patterns and develop the judgment that comes with frequent reps of individual combat tasks and regular large force employment training. At best, U.S. front-line fighter pilots—and therefore every combat fighter squadron in the Air Force—are qualified to conduct only limited wartime missions.

Independent operational readiness exercises, once a regular part of annual training to prepare for semiannual operational readiness inspections, are no longer part of the regular unit training and evaluation regimen, nor are rigorous survive-to-operate scenarios currently integrated into training plans. Without intense, regular training under simulated combat conditions, Airmen are ill-prepared to operate on an airfield under attack.

Today, Chinese fighter pilots are reportedly getting more than 200 hours or 160 sorties in the air annually, or three or four sorties per week. That's far more than U.S. fighter pilots, who are lucky to get 120 hours a year, equating to fewer than 1.5 sorties a week.

The 3,400 nautical mile round trip from Guam to Taiwan would limit the U.S. Air Force to about 740 fighter sorties and 33 bomber sorties daily, even after reinforcements. The total number of fighter and bomber sorties the U.S. and allied air forces could muster from the second island chain, including Guam, would be roughly 26 percent of what China's PLAAF can generate. If the decision were made to move U.S. fighters to forward basing in the first island chain—Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines—the USAF could almost double its sortie rate to roughly 1,850 sorties a day, but that is still less than half what the PLAAF could generate.

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bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
China has a numerical advantage in navy ships. US response is we produce more anti missiles.

Now, China is producing more 5th gen jets to counter US response. Once China produce 200 5th gen jets/yr, it is really over.

The point is US no longer have the ability to procure more high end platforms so they try to cheap things out by producing more antiship missile to compensate things.

When I read that US only procure 45 F35, I know it is a declining moment for them. This will happen the same thing for their 6th gen procurement too. F22 is done. B2 is done. F35 is declining. 6th will end up same result, low procurement.
 
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