PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

AndrewJ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Popular opinions rarely translate to official policy, do they? When public opinion favored military intervention when Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan in 2022, the Chinese government had to put out op-eds on their state-run papers to tone down the militaristic fervor.

His opinion is, according to Taiwan's separist trend, it will soon reach a point that CCP has to start the war forced by people's idea. People was angry enough about CCP's actual move last time. It can't always be the case, that no matter what US does to Taiwan, after some PR & military exercise, CCP pretends nothing has happened. From people's perspective, CCP talks too much, done too less. Red lines can't be so flexible. :(
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
What you're describing is essentially a de facto independent nation. The only roadblock for Taiwan isn't the lack of a "declaration" but that of international recognition. Taiwan making a verbal declaration doesn't change the situation one bit unless the island takes concrete steps in that direction (i.e. making formal alliances with other countries, etc.), so I doubt China would really mind whether or not a Taiwanese politician decides to go in front of a podium and make a symbolic but meaningless declaration.
The ROC continuously tries to make these formal alliances. They are rejected, then try try to settle for lower ranking things like cultural exchange offices. Their failure is not for lack of trying. The fact is that the CCP has made it known that a declaration of independence is war. The Chinese people mirror this feeling, if not, then they desire a more aggressive approach. The official statements don't get clearer than this. Your personal feeling towards this is completely irrelevent. It's as ridiculous as saying that I don't think the US would fight back if Russia/China nuked them because they're just cowards.
Optics are hugely important as it pertains to the potential scope and likelihood of foreign intervention. China taking a reactive stance would yield vastly different results than if she were to proactively start military operations. Western democracies are acutely cognizant of their citizens' opinions and stances on the conflicts that they undertake; if a significant portion of their population opposes involvement in a conflict, it would be extremely difficult for their governments to continue their military operations lest they be prosecuted or voted out of office. On the other hand, if their populations perceive that it is China who is instigating conflict and threatening their daily lives, it would be nigh impossible for these nations to stay out of a conflict. This could have dramatic effects on the likelihood of Western military intervention and also the duration and intensity of the said intervention.
This is entirely untrue and you recognized that in your last post (#7,247). Most people in Europe, especially Germany, oppose using thier resources to fight Russia. Germany jails these people and gives them politicians to "elect," all of whom want to keep supporting Ukraine. Western nations have absolutely no care what their citizens think; they make their decisions based on what they think they must do (in this case, to please the Biden administration, which has now backfired since Trump came to office). Under no situation would a Western, non-US nation even consider fighting China unless it was obvious that China was faltering and they can win. It matters nothing at all what their citizens want.

Also, it is not possible for China to be reactive since it requires and ROC that is so stupid that it initiate attacks on the PRC.
China will likely respond to Taiwan's actions, not political verbiage (including "declarations" of independence). If Taiwan declares independence but its political & economic situation remains unchanged, China might just do political saber rattling instead of resorting to military action. On the other hand, if Taiwan instigates a dramatic shift in the balance of power in the region (e.g. by allowing the deployment of US offensive weaponry on Taiwan or developing WMDs) - even without declaring independence - China would respond much more forcefully.
Taiwan has done many things to increase its weaponry and it spares no effort to boost its acceptance globally. These are salami slicing and China often does not react forcefully. But China has stated that a declaration of independence is war. This is much simpler than reading in between the lines; this is reading the actual lines written in black ink on white paper. This is a world of technology, civilization. It'd do you well to recognize that words can be heavy.
China seems to realize the economic and military dangers of armed reunification and its own tabloids seem to shy away from the explicit mention of military intervention.
We're not North Korea; we don't talk about turning cities into seas of fire all the time. But once in a while, the warnings are there. China has told the US that it will trade every major Chinese and American city in a nuclear tit-for-tat with America if they intervene in Taiwan. Our military preparation is the fastest in the world and that speaks louder than any tabloid, because just like the West, we cannot choose our wars based on the emotions of our citizens but must do so based on the power dynamics at play. We seek to foster a proper brotherly bond with the Chinese people on the island, but if they push us, if they declare independence, they will bear the responsibility for a war they cannot win.
 
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Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
You laughably believe that China has "launchers" that are "unreachable" from the US military, but have failed to remember that B-2s and soon B-21s are literally designed to penetrate advanced air defense networks to literally reach exactly those kinds of launchers.
This is pure wishful thinking. This was true before the Cold War ended, when the B-2 was theoretically capable of penetrating the USSR and being informed in advance of the launch sites of Soviet road-based ICBMs by remote sensing satellites like LaCrosse.

The B-21's task is quite different, and both the B-2 and the B-21 can no longer do this, because the dense defensive layer of both Russia and China prevents them from doing so, especially in the case of China. The B-21 will be used to penetrate airspace contested by China, far from the Chinese coast, launching missiles and bombs to prevent the fait accompli in Taiwan.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
This is pure wishful thinking. This was true before the Cold War ended, when the B-2 was theoretically capable of penetrating the USSR and being informed in advance of the launch sites of Soviet road-based ICBMs by remote sensing satellites like LaCrosse.

The B-21's task is quite different, and both the B-2 and the B-21 can no longer do this, because the dense defensive layer of both Russia and China prevents them from doing so, especially in the case of China. The B-21 will be used to penetrate airspace contested by China, far from the Chinese coast, launching missiles and bombs to prevent the fait accompli in Taiwan.
The man believes a bunch of Reddit tropes and thinks that’s serious knowledge what can we do *shrug*
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
2. You assumed that the US interceptors developed in a time where there are no HGVs would be as effective in defending against HGVs as China's HGVs are at reaching their ship targets. This is why you put everything as, "You don't know; I don't know; nobody knows," effectively cancelling them out. But China's hypersonic ASBMs were developed specifically to strike US ships while American interceptors were not designed to target HGVs, though they may have some carry-over effect that would basically be a numbers game. So that puts the advantage to China's missiles. Then, the nature of it gives China further advantages because it is inherently much more difficult to hit a missile-sized object travelling at hypersonic speeds than to hit a ship-sized target travelling at like 35mph.
I’m not defending him, but there’s some truth to that argument.

I can joke with the Americans here, but there’s one thing that can’t be denied: they are indeed gaining some experience with their air defense systems. They’ve dealt with Iran’s Operation True Promise, which launched over 300 medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs) against Israel in total, and they’re also dealing with the Houthi threat in the Red Sea. Of course, in both cases, this is not comparable to what China might employ in a potential conflict, but it does demonstrate a remarkable degree of experience outside the controlled testing environment where these air defense systems are evaluated. A recent example is the use of THAAD to intercept Houthi missiles a few days ago.

Defenses against hypersonic ballistic threats are ideally implemented in layers, with overlap between them, starting in space. Defense against maneuverable hypersonic threats is currently only viable in the “terminal” phase, when the missile is diving toward the target, is no longer maneuvering, and slows down due to atmospheric friction. It is not possible to use exoatmospheric interceptors against so-called “hypersonics,” since they do not reach space (and when they do, it is only in the initial, post-burn phase).

In a few years, the GPI (Glide Phase Interceptor) interceptor will be operational and is expected to have the capacity to intercept hypersonic missiles (HCM and PBW) in the pre-terminal phase, that is, when the missile is still flying level at high altitude. When the GPI becomes operational, layered defense for hypersonic missiles will also be inaugurated.

The layered defense can be summarized as follows:
ICBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: GBI, SM-3 Block IIA, THAAD-ER

IRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, THAAD

MRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, SM-3 Block IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE

SRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, IB, IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3

TBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3, PAC-2

The American exoatmospheric interceptors are: GBI, SM-3 Block IA, IB and IIA. They cannot intercept hypersonic missiles, for obvious reasons (hypersonic missiles cannot reach space). The American high-performance endoatmospheric interceptors include: SM-6, SM-2, PAC-2, PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE. These, in theory, are capable of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the terminal phase. THAAD has a mixed capability (endoatmospheric and exoatmospheric) and, in theory, can neutralize hypersonic threats. The GPI, under development, will have the capability of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the intermediate glide phase. The SM-6 Block IB, also under development, should have its endoatmospheric interception capability improved in relation to the current version.

With the exception of a few systems mentioned, most have already been tested in combat in the last three years. The Houthis are an example: although they do not have an impressive arsenal of weapons and missiles, they have presented a valuable opportunity for the US Navy. Now, the US Navy can include, in the certification phase of the CVNs, new tactics refined based on the combat experience of previous units. The USS Gerald Ford, for example, is in training to replace the USS Harry Truman, benefiting from these lessons.

It is possible to consider that China has a much larger and more diverse arsenal, including HGV capabilities that others do not have. However, in terms of practical experience, the Americans are not standing still and have been certifying their air defense systems to face new threats.

It is important to note that these new offensive weapons (hypersonics) have not yet been fully proven in real combat. The impact of the so-called hypersonic missiles, presented as revolutionary in a conflict, has so far been zero. Whether in the case of Iran (Fattah-2) or Russia (Zircon), neither of these hypersonics has demonstrated true hypersonic speed in the terminal phase, which is the most vulnerable. Thus, it is likely that they have been routinely intercepted by endoatmospheric systems. Anti-ship ballistic missiles have also not shown their potential so far – the Houthis are a proven example of this. Still, these scenarios allow the US Navy to gain experience and pass on lessons learned to improve its air defense systems.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
The number of defensive launchers the US can field in China’s periphery is not classified. It’s *the most important question in any strategic scenario* and you can get a decent approximation by looking at locally sustainable assets lol. Anyone with half the intelligence you claim to have could at least run through the numbers in different scenarios, but instead we have another case of you using angry but empty word spam to run away from a simple question about numbers. Maybe understanding that a question about numbers requires numbers to answer, not furiously useless flailing, is above the bar of your already basic intelligence. Maybe I overestimated you :( So much for your “intellectual honesty” lol. Barking in retreat seems to be your favorite schtick. Maybe you should change your handle from Iron Man to Elon.

Btw did you come up with that lame lemonade but it’s actually pee clap back because you’re peeing your pants? Because that’s how you looking right now :)
This is where it will really make a difference. You can compare tonnage vs. tonnage or VLS vs. VLS, but the fundamental issue is the combined firepower that the PLA can apply against the Americans and the Americans' ability to defend themselves, just as the opposite is true for China.

The US does not seem to have a high-count capability in terms of volume or density of fire, whether in offensive or defensive launches, and this will make a huge difference in WestPac. Industrial capacity is outdated in practically all segments, especially in the production of ammunition and missiles. This is an abysmal advantage for the PLA, regardless of how much American systems gain a qualitative advantage, the numbers will make a difference.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I’m not defending him, but there’s some truth to that argument.

I can joke with the Americans here, but there’s one thing that can’t be denied: they are indeed gaining some experience with their air defense systems. They’ve dealt with Iran’s Operation True Promise, which launched over 300 medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs) against Israel in total, and they’re also dealing with the Houthi threat in the Red Sea. Of course, in both cases, this is not comparable to what China might employ in a potential conflict, but it does demonstrate a remarkable degree of experience outside the controlled testing environment where these air defense systems are evaluated. A recent example is the use of THAAD to intercept Houthi missiles a few days ago.

Defenses against hypersonic ballistic threats are ideally implemented in layers, with overlap between them, starting in space. Defense against maneuverable hypersonic threats is currently only viable in the “terminal” phase, when the missile is diving toward the target, is no longer maneuvering, and slows down due to atmospheric friction. It is not possible to use exoatmospheric interceptors against so-called “hypersonics,” since they do not reach space (and when they do, it is only in the initial, post-burn phase).

In a few years, the GPI (Glide Phase Interceptor) interceptor will be operational and is expected to have the capacity to intercept hypersonic missiles (HCM and PBW) in the pre-terminal phase, that is, when the missile is still flying level at high altitude. When the GPI becomes operational, layered defense for hypersonic missiles will also be inaugurated.

The layered defense can be summarized as follows:
ICBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: GBI, SM-3 Block IIA, THAAD-ER

IRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, THAAD

MRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, SM-3 Block IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE

SRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, IB, IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3

TBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3, PAC-2

The American exoatmospheric interceptors are: GBI, SM-3 Block IA, IB and IIA. They cannot intercept hypersonic missiles, for obvious reasons (hypersonic missiles cannot reach space). The American high-performance endoatmospheric interceptors include: SM-6, SM-2, PAC-2, PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE. These, in theory, are capable of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the terminal phase. THAAD has a mixed capability (endoatmospheric and exoatmospheric) and, in theory, can neutralize hypersonic threats. The GPI, under development, will have the capability of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the intermediate glide phase. The SM-6 Block IB, also under development, should have its endoatmospheric interception capability improved in relation to the current version.

With the exception of a few systems mentioned, most have already been tested in combat in the last three years. The Houthis are an example: although they do not have an impressive arsenal of weapons and missiles, they have presented a valuable opportunity for the US Navy. Now, the US Navy can include, in the certification phase of the CVNs, new tactics refined based on the combat experience of previous units. The USS Gerald Ford, for example, is in training to replace the USS Harry Truman, benefiting from these lessons.

It is possible to consider that China has a much larger and more diverse arsenal, including HGV capabilities that others do not have. However, in terms of practical experience, the Americans are not standing still and have been certifying their air defense systems to face new threats.

It is important to note that these new offensive weapons (hypersonics) have not yet been fully proven in real combat. The impact of the so-called hypersonic missiles, presented as revolutionary in a conflict, has so far been zero. Whether in the case of Iran (Fattah-2) or Russia (Zircon), neither of these hypersonics has demonstrated true hypersonic speed in the terminal phase, which is the most vulnerable. Thus, it is likely that they have been routinely intercepted by endoatmospheric systems. Anti-ship ballistic missiles have also not shown their potential so far – the Houthis are a proven example of this. Still, these scenarios allow the US Navy to gain experience and pass on lessons learned to improve its air defense systems.
There is actual data on this though, with a better comparable than Iran. I posted it here already.

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Intercept rate of modern IRBMs like Iskander and Kalibr-M in Ukraine is <10%.

Russians aren't fielding grandpa's rusty Scuds and a real war where you are actively shooting in all theaters and across all domains is very different than an isolated, unsupported, and prewarned political attack.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
There is actual data on this though, with a better comparable than Iran. I posted it here already.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Intercept rate of modern IRBMs like Iskander and Kalibr-M in Ukraine is <10%.

Russians aren't fielding grandpa's rusty Scuds and a real war where you are actively shooting in all theaters and across all domains is very different than an isolated, unsupported, and prewarned political attack.
Kalibr-M is a cruise missile. It is not an MRBM. Just like the Iskander, which can be classified as an SRBM.

The problem with the Russians is that they spread their attacks too thin. Instead of focusing on a single target at a time, they attack many targets at once, which prevents effective destruction of the target and may make it easier for the attack to be contained by active countermeasures. They would not have taken advantage of the saturation for any type of attack strategy. Western systems proved to be quite capable, because the Russians did not aim for an effective saturation of air defense systems, to the point that NASAMS actually had a very high intercept rate of Russian missiles. The Russians used Geran-2 drones to bait and saturate and expend Ukrainian missiles, but the concentrated amount was low, even with the Russians launching missiles and drones daily in high numbers.

I did some research
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, and it seems that from September 28, 2022 to September 1, 2024, the Russians launched a total of 11,466 missiles. I don't know if this data is correct, because by the year 2023, I posted a news story here counting a total of around 7,000 missiles launched against Ukraine.

Regardless, whether it's 7,000 or 11,000, it becomes quite interesting that with this volume of fire launched by the Russians, the Ukrainians are still standing, including with their industries still producing military items.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Kalibr-M is a cruise missile. It is not an MRBM. Just like the Iskander, which can be classified as an SRBM.

The problem with the Russians is that they spread their attacks too thin. Instead of focusing on a single target at a time, they attack many targets at once, which prevents effective destruction of the target and may make it easier for the attack to be contained by active countermeasures. They would not have taken advantage of the saturation for any type of attack strategy. Western systems proved to be quite capable, because the Russians did not aim for an effective saturation of air defense systems, to the point that NASAMS actually had a very high intercept rate of Russian missiles. The Russians used Geran-2 drones to bait and saturate and expend Ukrainian missiles, but the concentrated amount was low, even with the Russians launching missiles and drones daily in high numbers.

I did some research
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and it seems that from September 28, 2022 to September 1, 2024, the Russians launched a total of 11,466 missiles. I don't know if this data is correct, because by the year 2023, I posted a news story here counting a total of around 7,000 missiles launched against Ukraine.

Regardless, whether it's 7,000 or 11,000, it becomes quite interesting that with this volume of fire launched by the Russians, the Ukrainians are still standing, including with their industries still producing military items.
The original source called Kalibr-M the quasi-ballistic version.

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However, faster missiles like the Kh-22, which can reach speeds up to Mach 4.7, had an interception rate of less than 20%. Missiles and ballistic missiles with speeds over Mach 3 (such as the Kh-22/32, Kh-31, Kh-47, Zircon, and Iskander-M) remain challenging to intercept. Particularly, quasi-ballistic missiles like the Kalibre-M have an interception rate of less than 10%.

Ukraine is a big country and the Russians are using the missiles more for tactical capabilities. It also shows the power of morale: Russian destruction of Ukrainian assets is objectively higher than the destruction of Iraqi assets in 1991, but the Iraqis folded and the Ukrainians don't, because the Iraqis were terrified of the US while Ukrainians think that with the US on their side they're invincible no matter what.

It is also true that Ukraine's warfighting capability does not actually reside inside Ukraine.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
I’m not defending him, but there’s some truth to that argument.

I can joke with the Americans here, but there’s one thing that can’t be denied: they are indeed gaining some experience with their air defense systems. They’ve dealt with Iran’s Operation True Promise, which launched over 300 medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs) against Israel in total, and they’re also dealing with the Houthi threat in the Red Sea. Of course, in both cases, this is not comparable to what China might employ in a potential conflict, but it does demonstrate a remarkable degree of experience outside the controlled testing environment where these air defense systems are evaluated. A recent example is the use of THAAD to intercept Houthi missiles a few days ago.

Defenses against hypersonic ballistic threats are ideally implemented in layers, with overlap between them, starting in space. Defense against maneuverable hypersonic threats is currently only viable in the “terminal” phase, when the missile is diving toward the target, is no longer maneuvering, and slows down due to atmospheric friction. It is not possible to use exoatmospheric interceptors against so-called “hypersonics,” since they do not reach space (and when they do, it is only in the initial, post-burn phase).

In a few years, the GPI (Glide Phase Interceptor) interceptor will be operational and is expected to have the capacity to intercept hypersonic missiles (HCM and PBW) in the pre-terminal phase, that is, when the missile is still flying level at high altitude. When the GPI becomes operational, layered defense for hypersonic missiles will also be inaugurated.

The layered defense can be summarized as follows:
ICBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: GBI, SM-3 Block IIA, THAAD-ER

IRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, THAAD

MRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, SM-3 Block IB, SM-3 Block IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE

SRBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: SM-3 Block IIA, IB, IA, THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3

TBMs:
Exoatmospheric capability: THAAD
Endoatmospheric capability: THAAD, SM-6, PAC-3 MSE, PAC-3, PAC-2

The American exoatmospheric interceptors are: GBI, SM-3 Block IA, IB and IIA. They cannot intercept hypersonic missiles, for obvious reasons (hypersonic missiles cannot reach space). The American high-performance endoatmospheric interceptors include: SM-6, SM-2, PAC-2, PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE. These, in theory, are capable of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the terminal phase. THAAD has a mixed capability (endoatmospheric and exoatmospheric) and, in theory, can neutralize hypersonic threats. The GPI, under development, will have the capability of intercepting hypersonic missiles in the intermediate glide phase. The SM-6 Block IB, also under development, should have its endoatmospheric interception capability improved in relation to the current version.

With the exception of a few systems mentioned, most have already been tested in combat in the last three years. The Houthis are an example: although they do not have an impressive arsenal of weapons and missiles, they have presented a valuable opportunity for the US Navy. Now, the US Navy can include, in the certification phase of the CVNs, new tactics refined based on the combat experience of previous units. The USS Gerald Ford, for example, is in training to replace the USS Harry Truman, benefiting from these lessons.

It is possible to consider that China has a much larger and more diverse arsenal, including HGV capabilities that others do not have. However, in terms of practical experience, the Americans are not standing still and have been certifying their air defense systems to face new threats.

It is important to note that these new offensive weapons (hypersonics) have not yet been fully proven in real combat. The impact of the so-called hypersonic missiles, presented as revolutionary in a conflict, has so far been zero. Whether in the case of Iran (Fattah-2) or Russia (Zircon), neither of these hypersonics has demonstrated true hypersonic speed in the terminal phase, which is the most vulnerable. Thus, it is likely that they have been routinely intercepted by endoatmospheric systems. Anti-ship ballistic missiles have also not shown their potential so far – the Houthis are a proven example of this. Still, these scenarios allow the US Navy to gain experience and pass on lessons learned to improve its air defense systems.
While US is getting an array with on paper impressive systems, it should be remembered that THAAD-ER let alone GPI is still in development, with no clear timeline to arrive. The currently in service HQ-19 lies somewhere between the two in capability, and this is a real delivered piece used and tested. Not funding requests and presentation slides.

Yemen does not possess ASBM. They fire HQ-2 variants in anti ship mode. It's about as much ASBM as an anti ship mode SM-6 is, except the HQ-2 is much older, something that's not even in formal production today anymore.

That AAMs in surface fire mode can be intercepted quite easily has been a belief on both sides of the Pacific. US initially billed SM-6 surface fire as a stopgap for Harpoon being useless, but quickly realized (and China also showed through its complete lack of concern) that it wouldn't work well at all.
 
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