PLA Small arms
- Thread starter Vanguard1688
- Start date
MwRYum
Major
First is the NSG-85...SVD with integrated rail mount instead of the old Russian-type mount, think this should finally rid of the wobbly scope problem plagued the old Type 85; I'm not that sure about the "sniper ammo" in the catalogue...does that mean it's designed to take the 7N1 ammo or otherwise similar type? Norinco has a production line for 7N1 ammo too?
The NSG-127...it's basically the QBU-10 now entered PLA service but with modified butt stock, modified bipod mounting, full-length rail mount and with standard optics, the trajectory computer scope is no for export I think.
It's interesting is the modifications those 2 have, would be positive if these got feed back to domestic kits, ditching the notorious QBU-88 in DMR role (proper sniper role let the CS-LR4 do it, QBU-10 fills the anti-materiel role).
Also interesting is the optical kit available...wonder if they're all MIC now...thermals and NV definitely not available to civilian market so we couldn't tell how they perform comparing with US/European made ones.
The NSG-127...it's basically the QBU-10 now entered PLA service but with modified butt stock, modified bipod mounting, full-length rail mount and with standard optics, the trajectory computer scope is no for export I think.
It's interesting is the modifications those 2 have, would be positive if these got feed back to domestic kits, ditching the notorious QBU-88 in DMR role (proper sniper role let the CS-LR4 do it, QBU-10 fills the anti-materiel role).
Also interesting is the optical kit available...wonder if they're all MIC now...thermals and NV definitely not available to civilian market so we couldn't tell how they perform comparing with US/European made ones.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
The Russians are also updating the Dragonov for there modern wants. It makes sense as it's a very effective system with potential for growth. The DMR role continues to be more and more proven a effective part of a infantry squad and the SVD is a fine DMR. and the 7.62x54mm offers excellent rangeA new spin on the old Dragunov, with a free-floating barrel, as opposed to the semi-floated one on the Dragunov.
Odd choice not to export but then again if the rail is Milstd 1913 then there are at least a dozen on the open market.
I said it before, Using a DMR that fires the same round as your standard issue assault rifle is building a hot rod but keeping the engine stock.
The CS-LR4 would be fine for a full sniper assuming that the PRC wanted that. The construction is about par for a late modern bolt action sniper rifle, There are obviously more advanced models that have transitioned to more modular chassis and offer a myriad of more advanced options and features. but it still compares with the Artic warfare or M24A2. It seems to me to have a serious edge vs the Taiwanese T93 sniper rifle thanks to a detachable box mag vs a internal box and the longer range of the rounds.
But the modern rifle squad needs a DMR gunner. The NSG 85 would fill that nitch and if the PLA wanted we know that the Dragonov design is adaptable to a bullpup just look at the Russian OTs-03 SVU. or the could farther mod the CS-LR14
MwRYum
Major
Back in the day when they make that mediocre of a gun, the QBU-88, the Chinese as a whole still haven't got a good idea of modern sniping, including the use of proper optics and specialized ammo, so all they wanted is something that shoot better than Type 85 and QBU-88 did deliver. The "shock 'n awe" when the Chinese first took part in the international shooting competition more or less resulted in the unofficial adoption of CS/LS4 package by PAP formations and several local level police departments, but experience learned seems to take more time to reach the military; and in return, to issue specifications in proper DMR rifles.
NSG-85 (or "new" Type 85 as I'd call it) could be a good replacement - back in the day one of the chief complaint against the SVD is its size and weight in relation to lesser-built Chinese soldiers, but now Chinese are generally better fed and better built then decades before, proper DMR like the SVD should be ok now, and performance would make its bulk a worthy price to pay for.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Have to consider there is a difference between a Designated Marksmen and a true modern sniper. And that even the modern sniper role is changing in Urban vs other Terrain types.
A Marksmen is a fully organic member of the rifle squad who serves to extend the squad's range. A Replacement for the Type 88 in either 762x51 or 7.62x54 would have to be semiautomatic and fit a bayonet as this would still be a full member of the infantry formation.
A full sniper though is intended to operate differently performing more specialized missions with a longer range weapons set. In Terrain like Gobi or Plateaus of the Hindu Kush and Tebet a true sniper would be a excellent asset. His longer reach and Accuracy combined with proper use of concealment makes him and his spotter Force multipliers. In Urban Terrain with a Semiauto A sniper is also force multiplier. He can scan ahead of friendlies spot potential trouble and take care of it. He also can serve as a true smart weapon eliminating trouble targets with out need of wiping out city blocks.
Of course The PLA still seems to play as Artillery heavy, Yet a sniper is not just a shooter he is a spotter and a well placed sniper can direct those Rockets, Mortars and Cannons on to target.
From What I have seen Of it the Type 88 DMR rifle's real drawback is it's round.The PLA created it based on western military fashions And the perceived need to make the PLA look like a Modern force for the Cameras during the hand over of Hong Kong. This need as well as the Rush to deadline also resulted in the QBZ95 and it's issues. Rather then taking the time to review and trial they rushed it and latched on to some troubled concepts. The Same concepts even worked into western weapons to.
It took blooding in action to prove them fallacy.
The Idea of a common universal Round is a Old one and the only time it really worked was the Second World War where you saw weapons that ranged across the missions firing the same rounds. The US M1 Garand, Springfield M1913, M1919 Browning Automatic rifle and M1917 Browning Machine guns all fired the same 30.06, but Post WW2 the realisation that almost all infantry fights happens at close quarters with both sides stumbiling into each other and the side with the most fire power wins. The Changes to the standard infantry weapons mix ruled that the Universal cartridge was really a myth. That's why When the Russians Made the AK's the kept the old Mosin Nagants and then followed up with the SVD.And why when push came to shove in Iraq and Afghanistan most of the forces adopted 7.62x51mm semi autos.
No reason they could't build a new DMR Bull in 7.62mm. Heck the Israelis were said to be doing that with the Tavor.
A Marksmen is a fully organic member of the rifle squad who serves to extend the squad's range. A Replacement for the Type 88 in either 762x51 or 7.62x54 would have to be semiautomatic and fit a bayonet as this would still be a full member of the infantry formation.
A full sniper though is intended to operate differently performing more specialized missions with a longer range weapons set. In Terrain like Gobi or Plateaus of the Hindu Kush and Tebet a true sniper would be a excellent asset. His longer reach and Accuracy combined with proper use of concealment makes him and his spotter Force multipliers. In Urban Terrain with a Semiauto A sniper is also force multiplier. He can scan ahead of friendlies spot potential trouble and take care of it. He also can serve as a true smart weapon eliminating trouble targets with out need of wiping out city blocks.
Of course The PLA still seems to play as Artillery heavy, Yet a sniper is not just a shooter he is a spotter and a well placed sniper can direct those Rockets, Mortars and Cannons on to target.
From What I have seen Of it the Type 88 DMR rifle's real drawback is it's round.The PLA created it based on western military fashions And the perceived need to make the PLA look like a Modern force for the Cameras during the hand over of Hong Kong. This need as well as the Rush to deadline also resulted in the QBZ95 and it's issues. Rather then taking the time to review and trial they rushed it and latched on to some troubled concepts. The Same concepts even worked into western weapons to.
It took blooding in action to prove them fallacy.
The Idea of a common universal Round is a Old one and the only time it really worked was the Second World War where you saw weapons that ranged across the missions firing the same rounds. The US M1 Garand, Springfield M1913, M1919 Browning Automatic rifle and M1917 Browning Machine guns all fired the same 30.06, but Post WW2 the realisation that almost all infantry fights happens at close quarters with both sides stumbiling into each other and the side with the most fire power wins. The Changes to the standard infantry weapons mix ruled that the Universal cartridge was really a myth. That's why When the Russians Made the AK's the kept the old Mosin Nagants and then followed up with the SVD.And why when push came to shove in Iraq and Afghanistan most of the forces adopted 7.62x51mm semi autos.
One thing I feel should be said here is We live in interesting times for Bullpups. since the 1970's when Bulls started being adopted Bullpups have remained primarily in the Assault rifle Intermediate cartridge class especially the 5.56x45mm, but now Things are interesting there are a number of Battle rifle .308 caliber Bulls popping up.
No reason they could't build a new DMR Bull in 7.62mm. Heck the Israelis were said to be doing that with the Tavor.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I don't know what your beef with the Type 88 is, but it's a good DMR by all accounts, and it's unbecoming to misrepresent facts.
The Chinese team were not allowed to use their Type88s during the first international sniper competition, so they had to use borrowed rifles that they never trained with before, which was a big factor in why they performed so poorly.
There is no way you can blame the poor results from that competition of the Type88 since it wasn't used in that competition. Which is a shame, as I would be been very interested to know how the Chinese team would have faired pitching the 88 against full blooded sniper rifles.
MwRYum
Major
The QBU-88 earned the nickname "Type 88 shotgun" in Mainland China because of its actual performance - though the common opinion is that with match-grade ammo, match-grade barrel, relocate the bipod away from the whole barrel assembly, and scope that takes into account of the new ballistic characteristics you'd then get a proper DMR (which as you can tell will be quite a lot of work, and PLA isn't known to be that keen when comes to COTS solution either)...still, with DMR the common consensus is to have longer reach than the rest of squad, more accurate than the rest of the squad yet the DM can still keep up with the rest of the squad, which is why newer DMRs moving back to 7.62mm NATO and paired with match-graded ammo to do the job.
Problem with QBU-88 is that it's supposed to be a DMR but crippled by the lack of proper ammo (sharing ammo with SAW to save cost but we know now DMR need specialized rounds) and precision engineering - which comes about in the early 2000s when the Chinese finally serious about proper sniper rifles and look into making their own...CS/LR3 takes a proven formula, including specialized ammo into the equation.
MwRYum
Major
Work and AFK...damn I hate the time-limit on editing...
For quite a long time PLA not exactly understand what sniping is, even their celebrated "snipers" are in fact what we'd call sharpshooters, although the mosin-nagant does provide the reach and accruacy when in gifted hands, but overall PLA didn't systematically trained marksmen, and Chinese just lack the hunting / gun-using traditions like in the West.
That's when a couple of hostage situations the accruacy problem came to its head and thus born the nickname...as for the "image issue"...hmmm...that's rather in the rumor department, though I'd understand that carrying Type 81 (it's not AK, but "AK-ish", Hongkongers are brainwashed to see AK negatively to the DNA level) does have an image problem there.
To mod the Type 85 into something like SVU? Technically it should be possible (it's said that Type 88 is adapt the mechanism from Type 85/SVD) but it'd also mean a longer R&D cycle than the COTS solution...and even to this day, the Chinese as a whole still not that totally brought the Bullpup concept either.
MwRYum
Major
Probably after all these years, finally get some outside review of the Type 81, to really settle the question of "how good / bad is it?"...