PLA Small arms

wssth0306 said:

Might not even be a budget issue, rather a threat issue in which China internal security operates at (excluding XingJiang) is mostly peaceful , gun are rarely seen , and if seen are handled mostly by PAP who has rifles.


Notice how rarely Chinese police swat has been used , mostly it the PAP that are taking on that role.
So one could argue that police doesn't really need a SMG from the get go , so using the existing handguns is more then enough for the threat environment.

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I've actually seen a lot of the opposite on Chinese media. I see a lot of SWATs using ARs and SMGs whereas only office workers, post guards, and civilian-clothed operators such as the DEAs use pistols. Then there are patrol officers who also are seen holding ARs, SMGs, and even shotguns. As much as PAPs are used, they are not everywhere all the time.

Also, here are some nice videos on the new SMG and all 3 new pistols being used.

Off-topic but @TerraN_EmpirE, are there any ARs with the same style of charging handle as the CS/LS 6? I've realized that a lot of similar firearms like the SCAR, ACR, APC 223, Bren 2, and such all have a monolithic upper and the charging handle on top of the ejection port.

Aniah said:

Also, here are some nice videos on the new SMG and all 3 new pistols being used.

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That's quite a high rpm, I like it

Aniah said:

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What happened to the hammer of the QSZ-193? I thought it was just a new version of the 92 pistol

Aniah said:

I've actually seen a lot of the opposite on Chinese media. I see a lot of SWATs using ARs and SMGs whereas only office workers, post guards, and civilian-clothed operators such as the DEAs use pistols. Then there are patrol officers who also are seen holding ARs, SMGs, and even shotguns. As much as PAPs are used, they are not everywhere all the time.

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Think about the videos you are seen , where were they filmed ? in training, on a firing range.
Think where you ever saw a video of Chinese SWAT been deployed on a suspect with a gun , and think how many PAP are deployed against a armed suspect.
The police force in China don't , and not meant to handle armed threat with a gun, if they do ,it's by accident and not intention, even if the drug busts are carried out with PAP as it's main firepower.

On another point , and here lies the problem really, there is a reason that you see many SWAT around the world not using SMG anymore ,it a product of a by gone era, if given a choice, buying a rifle or SMG , most application will choose a rifle.
If the threat has a gun , you want a rifle , and if the threat doesn't then a handgun is enough .
The only advantage a SMG has over the rifle that is lighter , and shorter , and more easily controlled in full auto.
The first 2 are compromises worth taking for a bigger punch, and the latter are a none factor as police applications don't use the full auto any way , all of videos you see them doing it is in the firing range.

SMG, it's name says it all , it a sub-machine gun , and the machine gun referenced here is ones water cooled like Maxims during ww1.
It came into existence to provide full auto fire power in a time fully automatic rifle for single person use didn't exist.
Post war just about every army stopped issuing SMG in it's battle order as a standard equipment , and post 1990s when short barrel rifles become more common SMG lost the last advantage of been shorter then what a rifle could be, in most cases , where you can fit a SMG , you can fit a rifle.

On the other end , the main problem with handgun beside the lack of firepower , is training .
It takes much much more training to shoot a handgun under stress compare due to lack of support from shoulder.
It takes much less time for someone to be trained to use a SMG well compared to a hand gun , but the same holds true for a rifle.
So the training advantage of SMG compared to a handgun , rifles has it too.
Here where the conversion kit come into the picture, to solve the training issue.

Basically , if you see any unit armed with SMG in any country , it is most likely some other limitation are in work here ,for example they can't buy a rifle ,or an older army SMG is leaving the inventory so they can get them for free.
Other then that unless you are a special service branch that need to hide a gun under the suit , you would get a handgun or a rifle.

wssth0306 said:

Think about the videos you are seen , where were they filmed ? in training, on a firing range.
Think where you ever saw a video of Chinese SWAT been deployed on a suspect with a gun , and think how many PAP are deployed against a armed suspect.
The police force in China don't , and not meant to handle armed threat with a gun, if they do ,it's by accident and not intention, even if the drug busts are carried out with PAP as it's main firepower.

On another point , and here lies the problem really, there is a reason that you see many SWAT around the world not using SMG anymore ,it a product of a by gone era, if given a choice, buying a rifle or SMG , most application will choose a rifle.
If the threat has a gun , you want a rifle , and if the threat doesn't then a handgun is enough .
The only advantage a SMG has over the rifle that is lighter , and shorter , and more easily controlled in full auto.
The first 2 are compromises worth taking for a bigger punch, and the latter are a none factor as police applications don't use the full auto any way , all of videos you see them doing it is in the firing range.

SMG, it's name says it all , it a sub-machine gun , and the machine gun referenced here is ones water cooled like Maxims during ww1.
It came into existence to provide full auto fire power in a time fully automatic rifle for single person use didn't exist.
Post war just about every army stopped issuing SMG in it's battle order as a standard equipment , and post 1990s when short barrel rifles become more common SMG lost the last advantage of been shorter then what a rifle could be, in most cases , where you can fit a SMG , you can fit a rifle.

On the other end , the main problem with handgun beside the lack of firepower , is training .
It takes much much more training to shoot a handgun under stress compare due to lack of support from shoulder.
It takes much less time for someone to be trained to use a SMG well compared to a hand gun , but the same holds true for a rifle.
So the training advantage of SMG compared to a handgun , rifles has it too.
Here where the conversion kit come into the picture, to solve the training issue.

Basically , if you see any unit armed with SMG in any country , it is most likely some other limitation are in work here ,for example they can't buy a rifle ,or an older army SMG is leaving the inventory so they can get them for free.
Other then that unless you are a special service branch that need to hide a gun under the suit , you would get a handgun or a rifle.

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You missed one of my points, I said patrol. Those who patrol around the city or area have been seen walking around with rifles and shotguns and SMGs. Then, I do not believe a rifle or an SBR is always better than an SMG in certain cases. Even an SBR can over penetrate soft targets.

The benefits of an SMG are reliability, accuracy, power, full auto, stability, and control. All things that are superior to a pistol carbine kit. There is a reason why PCCs are recently becoming extremely popular in the US whereas pistol carbine kits never really took off compared to SBRs or PCCs, mainly because of these reasons. Just look at how many in China have an SMG vs a pistol carbine kit. As for the lack of firepower, that's what the full auto is for. I've seen Chinese police who love SMGs because they can put a lot of bullets within a short burst with little recoil. Most of what I've said comes from what I've seen from the Chinese police and multiple police dedicated social media.

Aniah said:

You missed one of my points, I said patrol. Those who patrol around the city or area have been seen walking around with rifles and shotguns and SMGs. Then, I do not believe a rifle or an SBR is always better than an SMG in certain cases. Even an SBR can over penetrate soft targets.

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over penetration in a SBR or carbine even an SMG or PCC will depend on ammunition type. If you have a solid cored bullet with a high pressure round in a PCC it can over penetrate as much as a rifle round. If you have a soft nosed bullet with a lower pressure propellant load the Carbine can have less penetration than a pistol. It’s the mix. Bullet construction plus pressure load plus burn time = penetration and range.

Aniah said:

The benefits of an SMG are reliability, accuracy, power, full auto, stability, and control. All things that are superior to a pistol carbine kit. There is a reason why PCCs are recently becoming extremely popular in the US whereas pistol carbine kits never really took off compared to SBRs or PCCs, mainly because of these reasons. Just look at how many in China have an SMG vs a pistol carbine kit. As for the lack of firepower, that's what the full auto is for. I've seen Chinese police who love SMGs because they can put a lot of bullets within a short burst with little recoil. Most of what I've said comes from what I've seen from the Chinese police and multiple police dedicated social media.

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SMGS only real advantages vs an assault rifle or carbine are size and commonality of pistol bullet. aspects like recoil will very based on ammunition. Reliability? Depends on the weapon how it operates and how it’s built generally it would be a tie.
Accuracy? Again depending on ammunition, barrel, construction without specifics I would call a tie for a modern SMG vs Modern Carbine. This one though I would state has more to due with training.
Power? Ammunition defined.
Full auto? Not every smg is not is every carbine for LEO full auto is not necessarily mandatory. I would rather the selective fire arms go to LEO with more training in it than all LEO.
Stability and control? A stock is better than no stock control comes to training but if you mean recoil A 9mm PCC of the AR configuration will will 124g ammunition give you about 2lbs of force an AR15 firing 55 g will give you 3 lbs of force. More modern 120g 5.56 will give you 7 lb of force. However generally speaking unless you have some extreme physical disability of muscular and skeletal nature any adult could handle the recoil force of any intermediate class caliber weapon. How they handle it will depend on training. More recoil more training.
A pistol with a stock kit > Pistol
PCC>Pistol with stock kit
PCC=SMG depends on if the user has the training to take advantage.
carbine>PCC
Selective fire carbine>SMG.

As to SMGs and Pistol caliber carbines. Drawing conclusions from the US trends is a poor argument as other things have to be considered. When it comes to PCCs politics gets involved. Not going into political aspects but 2020-2022 has had a lot of civil unrest. Much of the American population worried that the LEO may not be the best option for defense of home and family. Record breaking numbers of American citizens decided to practice their second amendment right. In the process many gun stores were employed of AR15s. It was the first to go as people who were buying looked around and fairly quickly learned the AR is easy. A few grabbed AKs but only once the ARs were gone and a others seeing the AK asked about PCCs. In most of the US getting a carbine is easier than a pistol and as I said a carbine is easier to train on. Carbine kits in the US have another issue which is that adding a stock to a pistol is a troublesome bit. The US has laws that restrict putting stocks on pistols to a degree and the need to then add the kit to the pistol where a PCC is just right out of the box.

As a general rule a lot of LEO globally come from Military at one time either by compulsory service or voluntary service this instill familiarity with carbines, nations with more open gun ownership can also have its LEOs having practice before joining or on off time. PRC is a bit different as Civil officials are generally out of college, Via civil service examination. You then factor in China as a restrictive access to firearms and you have to start training the LEOs from scratch and they are restricted to allocated training. This creates bias towards weapons training, handling and operations. With the PRC restrictions, the State owned suppliers only offering weapons on a priority basis the choice and selection argument is skewed by the priorities.

Just an example but I see a lot of these patrols and I've never seen them carry a pistol carbine but rather SMGs. I have seen maybe one or two carbine kits being used before even but the older SMGs are 100 times more frequent than a carbine kit. I stand by my saying that a carbine kit is only used if they either don't have the new weapons delivered yet and this is all they have in inventory or is a budget issue but it's usually the former.

Edit: Youtube is down and I can't share my video... I'll post it later. I really hate youtube.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

over penetration in a SBR or carbine even an SMG or PCC will depend on ammunition type. If you have a solid cored bullet with a high pressure round in a PCC it can over penetrate as much as a rifle round. If you have a soft nosed bullet with a lower pressure propellant load the Carbine can have less penetration than a pistol. It’s the mix. Bullet construction plus pressure load plus burn time = penetration and range.

SMGS only real advantages vs an assault rifle or carbine are size and commonality of pistol bullet. aspects like recoil will very based on ammunition. Reliability? Depends on the weapon how it operates and how it’s built generally it would be a tie.
Accuracy? Again depending on ammunition, barrel, construction without specifics I would call a tie for a modern SMG vs Modern Carbine. This one though I would state has more to due with training.
Power? Ammunition defined.
Full auto? Not every smg is not is every carbine for LEO full auto is not necessarily mandatory. I would rather the selective fire arms go to LEO with more training in it than all LEO.
Stability and control? A stock is better than no stock control comes to training but if you mean recoil A 9mm PCC of the AR configuration will will 124g ammunition give you about 2lbs of force an AR15 firing 55 g will give you 3 lbs of force. More modern 120g 5.56 will give you 7 lb of force. However generally speaking unless you have some extreme physical disability of muscular and skeletal nature any adult could handle the recoil force of any intermediate class caliber weapon. How they handle it will depend on training. More recoil more training.
A pistol with a stock kit > Pistol
PCC>Pistol with stock kit
PCC=SMG depends on if the user has the training to take advantage.
carbine>PCC
Selective fire carbine>SMG.

As to SMGs and Pistol caliber carbines. Drawing conclusions from the US trends is a poor argument as other things have to be considered. When it comes to PCCs politics gets involved. Not going into political aspects but 2020-2022 has had a lot of civil unrest. Much of the American population worried that the LEO may not be the best option for defense of home and family. Record breaking numbers of American citizens decided to practice their second amendment right. In the process many gun stores were employed of AR15s. It was the first to go as people who were buying looked around and fairly quickly learned the AR is easy. A few grabbed AKs but only once the ARs were gone and a others seeing the AK asked about PCCs. In most of the US getting a carbine is easier than a pistol and as I said a carbine is easier to train on. Carbine kits in the US have another issue which is that adding a stock to a pistol is a troublesome bit. The US has laws that restrict putting stocks on pistols to a degree and the need to then add the kit to the pistol where a PCC is just right out of the box.

As a general rule a lot of LEO globally come from Military at one time either by compulsory service or voluntary service this instill familiarity with carbines, nations with more open gun ownership can also have its LEOs having practice before joining or on off time. PRC is a bit different as Civil officials are generally out of college, Via civil service examination. You then factor in China as a restrictive access to firearms and you have to start training the LEOs from scratch and they are restricted to allocated training. This creates bias towards weapons training, handling and operations. With the PRC restrictions, the State owned suppliers only offering weapons on a priority basis the choice and selection argument is skewed by the priorities.

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I agree but when we are specifically talking about China's rifles here. The DBP10 even out of an SBR will probably over-penetrate soft tissue easily. And most of them use full-length rifles rather than SBRs. Saw them shoot a pig and a cow once, it definitely penetrated all the way through. An SMG loaded with standard 9mm is still relevant for the police because of this. And I stick with my points on the benefits of an SMG over a carbine kit. A lot of what I've said was taken from the Chinese police who've used them. The CS/LS 7 definitely has a better handle and control over recoil. The videos posted in the last couple of pages prove that.

Here's the video for the previous post.