PLA Small arms

jobjed said:

I really like the Lapua round and hope the PLA will adopt that instead of the 7.62mm if they also intend on keeping the 5.8mm CS/LR4 in service, since the 7.62mm is not as compact as the 5.8mm and not as lethal as the 8.6mm so it's stuck in an uncomfortable location between the two.

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I think that would depend on the End users.
For most Police Uses the 5.8mm would be perfect. Swat and Counter terror in Urban sniper work is normally close range. for that the CS/LR4 would be perfect.
For Military though things change. If the PLA decides to adopt a western Style dedicated sniper then It becomes a question of more interest.
First is there possible reasons for such a move? yes especially for Counter Piracy and mountain Warfare operations.
Now looking at what Specs we have of the two weapons One interesting point is that the XY7.62 and the XY 8.6 are almost Identical in weight so with a marginal weight difference it comes to range. The 8.6mm LM round was designed from conception for Snipers it has longer range by design.

Although a number of nations issue bolt action .308 types as there main line sniper rifle The South Koreans, Japan, The Vietnamese army, India and Pakistan, the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand just to name a few neighbors. At Least some of them Australia and New Zealand have picked up Semi auto .308s and South Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia have atleast Special unit use of .338Lm rifles.
the .308 Market is seeming to be transitioning to the semi auto mode as the 7.62x51mm Nato round was originally intended for a semiauto rifle and with the AR derived weapon is very controllable with comparable mechanical accuracy.
Heck some makers in the US and Germany are experimenting with .300WM semi autos now.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

I think that would depend on the End users.
For most Police Uses the 5.8mm would be perfect. Swat and Counter terror in Urban sniper work is normally close range. for that the CS/LR4 would be perfect.
For Military though things change. If the PLA decides to adopt a western Style dedicated sniper then It becomes a question of more interest.
First is there possible reasons for such a move? yes especially for Counter Piracy and mountain Warfare operations.
Now looking at what Specs we have of the two weapons One interesting point is that the XY7.62 and the XY 8.6 are almost Identical in weight so with a marginal weight difference it comes to range. The 8.6mm LM round was designed from conception for Snipers it has longer range by design.

Although a number of nations issue bolt action .308 types as there main line sniper rifle The South Koreans, Japan, The Vietnamese army, India and Pakistan, the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand just to name a few neighbors. At Least some of them Australia and New Zealand have picked up Semi auto .308s and South Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia have atleast Special unit use of .338Lm rifles.
the .308 Market is seeming to be transitioning to the semi auto mode as the 7.62x51mm Nato round was originally intended for a semiauto rifle and with the AR derived weapon is very controllable with comparable mechanical accuracy.
Heck some makers in the US and Germany are experimenting with .300WM semi autos now.

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Which still leaves their semi-auto DMR without a decent hardware. Bolt-action sniper rifle is destined for specialist snipers sure, but the DMR still without proper rifle - as soon as you realise specialist / match-grade ammo is the essential tool of the trade, the logical next step to build a DMR design that's properly geared for the job.

If design a new gun from the ground up is too costly, they can still go back to the tried and tested SVD, which the Norinco export catalog has a "modernised" model along with "specialist ammo". They can start from there.

Does china have a project for telescoped polymer or caseless ammunition ?

Akkarin said:

Does china have a project for telescoped polymer or caseless ammunition ?

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No evidence of such. Changing to a CT round or Caseless Round demands a new rifle that can operate with such. All indications are they are still looking at conventional small arms Although they might be looking at polymer cased ammo.

MwRYum said:

Which still leaves their semi-auto DMR without a decent hardware. Bolt-action sniper rifle is destined for specialist snipers sure, but the DMR still without proper rifle - as soon as you realise specialist / match-grade ammo is the essential tool of the trade, the logical next step to build a DMR design that's properly geared for the job.

If design a new gun from the ground up is too costly, they can still go back to the tried and tested SVD, which the Norinco export catalog has a "modernised" model along with "specialist ammo". They can start from there.

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I agree MwRyum,
But It all depends on who is setting the requirements and what Doctrine they operate by.
If The people in charge of PLA Infantry weapons are still the same or still operating under the same school of Thought as those back in 96, Then they will keep the Universal cartridge concept and the QBU88 will be retained perhaps updated but retained
If however the PLA has been watching Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan closely, They would likely atleast have a few head scratching and pointing out the failings of the universal cartridge.
That might drive a wedge leading to a couple possibles.
Possible 1
NDM update
Off the Shelf, ready to go but seems more likely an interim and there is another option to

The NAR 751 seems to me to be a good point of development for a new DMR, Barrel length on the lower model is about right for infantry ( longer barrels vibrate more and make it harder to maneuver... frankly I would ditch the "Squad Machine Gun" Version all together). the barrel is already free floated. The Inline stock helps reduce muzzle climb. Add the right Optic and a bipod. You don't actually need Sub MOA for a DMR.

Akkarin said:

Does china have a project for telescoped polymer or caseless ammunition ?

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Short answer is no.
Long answer: not even half-baked rumor about that, so either China keeping is so well under wraps or it never went beyond materiel study. But when you consider they still have that much work to do with conventional ammo - took them decades to finally accept the merit of match-grade ammo or in boarder scope, specialist ammo types for different needs, instead of go cheap to have one ammo type to do everything right, so go figure - something that new? My bet is that at best you'd find some universitey lab running some studies, but yet progress to practical model.

MwRYum said:

Short answer is no.
Long answer: not even half-baked rumor about that, so either China keeping is so well under wraps or it never went beyond materiel study. But when you consider they still have that much work to do with conventional ammo - took them decades to finally accept the merit of match-grade ammo or in boarder scope, specialist ammo types for different needs, instead of go cheap to have one ammo type to do everything right, so go figure - something that new? My bet is that at best you'd find some universitey lab running some studies, but yet progress to practical model.

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tbh I'd be surprised if the army didn't have at least one project pursuing this.
Chinese small arms development often isn't like aircraft or ships -- we often don't get "rumours" for many years before we get pictures, instead we suddenly see a picture of a new weapon once the project is already in the later stages of development well beyond initial research, think the OICW, the new rifle family etc.

The fact that small arms development is much easier to hide than ships or aircraft doesn't really help us wanting to keep up to date with what the actual true leading edge of Chinese R&D in small arms actually is, and they sure as hell aren't going to give us any hints before the later stages of development anyway

TerraN_EmpirE said:

View attachment 39032
The NAR 751 seems to me to be a good point of development for a new DMR, Barrel length on the lower model is about right for infantry ( longer barrels vibrate more and make it harder to maneuver... frankly I would ditch the "Squad Machine Gun" Version all together). the barrel is already free floated. The Inline stock helps reduce muzzle climb. Add the right Optic and a bipod. You don't actually need Sub MOA for a DMR.

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I think the CS/LR-17 family overall was a contender for the Chinese Army's new modular rifle family, or at least derived from developments related to it, and we saw multiple variants across different calibres for the assault rifle, battle rifle, squad machine gun, DMR roles.



I think the new modular rifle family similarly will have different variants for different roles and potentially with a different calibre variant for DMR, and the study screenshot I posted at #1048 on the previous page seems to suggest that.


I quite like the idea of having a modular rifle family to replace most current rifle variants; carbine, assault rifle, squad machine gun, DMR, not unlike how the HK416 has spawned multiple variants given its different lengths (carbine, assault rifle), squad machine gun (M27 IAR), and DMR (HK417/G28 rifle).
Of course, I don't think there is an army in the world which has equipped all of its infantry with a single family of rifle and the new Chinese modular rifle family probably doesn't have anywhere near the bells and whistles of HK416/417, but at the same time I imagine it will have some key features like floating handguard, a more practical optics/top rail set up, and a standard ergonomic fire select so I'd like to think it may be a possibility.

Bltizo said:

I don't think there is an army in the world which has equipped all of its infantry with a single family of rifle

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A number come close but there are issues to deal with. G36 for example the HK G36 is a modular system.
G36C, G36K, G36 and MG36, The AK series, of course the most modular of modular was the Stoner 63. not just a Carbine and rifle but a Actual Belt feed LMG and GPMG

TerraN_EmpirE said:

A number come close but there are issues to deal with. G36 for example the HK G36 is a modular system.
G36C, G36K, G36 and MG36, The AK series, of course the most modular of modular was the Stoner 63. not just a Carbine and rifle but a Actual Belt feed LMG and GPMG

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But in reality, modular series more often not fully adopted, even when specialist models like SAW and DMR got selected it isn't long for them to be first supplimented then outright replaced by genuine specialist models.
In most cases, SAW version seems to have better luck in keeping its job, though, unless the baseline design is fundamentally flawed, like the British L85 series.

Well, most of the Modular weapon systems I think miss use the term.
Almost all the weapons we use this moniker on more or less use the same roadmap as the Styer AUG.
Where you basically have 3 versions of the AUG and all roles have to for those. And the change between PDW carbine and DMR/SAW is primarily just changing barrels. Your PDW has a short barrel between 7-14.5 inches depending on conventional vs Bullpup. A regular issue carbine with a barrel between 12.5-20inches and a heavy barrled support weapon 16-25inches with a bipod.
With the heavy barrled support weapon version pulling contradictory missions of DMR and LMG.
This is why I think you see at a latter date the supplement of said system at a later date. Case in point the MG36 a long barreled G36 that has more or less disappeared from service with the appearance of the MG4 and G28.